5 ms·

> I wonder how much of the lack of courses is also related to the "if you are a competent programmer and are capable of teaching others, can you find better pay

> I wonder how much of the lack of courses is also related to the "if you are a competent programmer and are capable of teaching others, can you find better paying jobs than working as a community college instructor on the low income side of the city?" This is actually a problem for all STEM and vocational programs a community college offers. It is also a problem for specialized certificate training (e.g. Commercial Drivers License, Cisco). It is not cheap to hire competent instructors. The only advantage the short term training in these circumstances has that you are more likely to be able to get an instructor for a short run or hire an outside contracting company to provide an instructor. Semester length or multi-Semester classes basically require the hiring of a faculty member. Frankly, a lot of the vocation jobs have better pay and career advancement these days with all the infrastructure fixes, new construction, and lack of competition.

WalterBright 10y ago
A lot of college stem students have a hard time finding even a minimum wage job. I bet they'd be a great as basic programming class instructors.
- brianwawok 10y ago
  So you want the tier of graduates not good enough to get a real job to teach the next wave of students? That sounds like a downward spiral.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    I didn't say graduates, I said students. Students often have trouble getting jobs because they need part time jobs, and industry wants full time. Teaching a class at CC would be part time.
    - protomyth 10y ago
      A lot of CCs having the problem are rather a long commute from an university. We're over 100 miles from the closest 4 year.
      - WalterBright 10y ago
        On the other hand, a lot of CCs are close by major universities. It doesn't have to work for all CCs in order to be very practical for many of them. Also, college students often go home for the summer, where they have a hard time finding summer jobs. A local CC offering to hire them to teach a summer class in programming would be a win-win for everyone concerned.
        protomyth 10y ago
        You'll find a lot of summer attendance in CCs is a lot lower due to summer jobs students take (many low experience jobs are available in summer unlike other seasons). To the point, a lot of 9 month contracts are happening much like regular schools.
        WalterBright 10y ago
        I don't really understand your point. Is it because it won't work 100% of the time for 100% of the CCs it should never be considered? Because it seems clear to me that for situations where it can work, it should be considered. Of course summer attendance is less. So there are fewer classes. Why is that a problem if there are enough people wanting to learn programming in the summer to form a class? Heck, I learned accounting in summer school. The college had 10x the number of accounting students during the rest of the year, but in the summer they still had enough to fill one class and found a local instructor who wanted to supplement his income. Are you suggesting that should not have happened?
        protomyth 10y ago
        My point is its of limited utility to a lot of institutions because students need to earn money and summer is the time to do it. Plus, the accreditation rules have changed in recent years to make people without a 4 year degrees (and indeed in some areas without a Masters) to be problematic for teaching.
    - shagie 10y ago
      Considering where I was in college and my skills at teaching then (and even now to an extent - mentoring is another matter), I would be very concerned about me, or my peers back when I was in college to be responsible for teaching a class on programming. And that was when things were simple (you used vi and make). While I am sure that there are many individuals who now come in with more code experience than the typical college student in the early 90s, there is a significant aspect of "are you mature enough to teach?" and "do you have enough experience to help students that need help?" Assisting teaching a class, maybe. But looking at the quality of the code I wrote and the advice I would give based on that code that I wrote, I would be very concerned for the future prospects of anyone who I taught when I was 21 and looking for a summer job.
      - WalterBright 10y ago
        College students often provide paid tutoring of students a year or two behind them on an ad-hoc basis, should that be prevented? The choice for CCs isn't between student teachers and experienced degree'd teachers. It's between student teachers and no teachers or teachers who know nothing about programming.
        protomyth 10y ago
        > College students often provide paid tutoring of students a year or two behind them on an ad-hoc basis, should that be prevented? The skills needed to run a classroom and the skills needed to tutor are quite different. I am unaware of any current rules about the education-level of tutors, and I doubt there are or will be any. > The choice for CCs isn't between student teachers and experienced degree'd teachers. It's between student teachers and no teachers or teachers who know nothing about programming. Student teachers (unless part of a TA situation and supervised) probably aren't a solution either unless we're talking certificates and not college credits. Determining Qualified Faculty Through HLC’s Criteria for Accreditation and Assumed Practices: http://download.hlcommission.org/FacultyGuidelines_2016_OPB.pdf http://download.hlcommission.org/FacultyGuidelines_2016_OPB....
        10y ago

WalterBright 10y ago

A lot of college stem students have a hard time finding even a minimum wage job. I bet they'd be a great as basic programming class instructors.

brianwawok 10y ago
So you want the tier of graduates not good enough to get a real job to teach the next wave of students? That sounds like a downward spiral.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  I didn't say graduates, I said students. Students often have trouble getting jobs because they need part time jobs, and industry wants full time. Teaching a class at CC would be part time.
  - protomyth 10y ago
    A lot of CCs having the problem are rather a long commute from an university. We're over 100 miles from the closest 4 year.
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      On the other hand, a lot of CCs are close by major universities. It doesn't have to work for all CCs in order to be very practical for many of them. Also, college students often go home for the summer, where they have a hard time finding summer jobs. A local CC offering to hire them to teach a summer class in programming would be a win-win for everyone concerned.
      - protomyth 10y ago
        You'll find a lot of summer attendance in CCs is a lot lower due to summer jobs students take (many low experience jobs are available in summer unlike other seasons). To the point, a lot of 9 month contracts are happening much like regular schools.
        WalterBright 10y ago
        I don't really understand your point. Is it because it won't work 100% of the time for 100% of the CCs it should never be considered? Because it seems clear to me that for situations where it can work, it should be considered. Of course summer attendance is less. So there are fewer classes. Why is that a problem if there are enough people wanting to learn programming in the summer to form a class? Heck, I learned accounting in summer school. The college had 10x the number of accounting students during the rest of the year, but in the summer they still had enough to fill one class and found a local instructor who wanted to supplement his income. Are you suggesting that should not have happened?
        protomyth 10y ago
        My point is its of limited utility to a lot of institutions because students need to earn money and summer is the time to do it. Plus, the accreditation rules have changed in recent years to make people without a 4 year degrees (and indeed in some areas without a Masters) to be problematic for teaching.
  - shagie 10y ago
    Considering where I was in college and my skills at teaching then (and even now to an extent - mentoring is another matter), I would be very concerned about me, or my peers back when I was in college to be responsible for teaching a class on programming. And that was when things were simple (you used vi and make). While I am sure that there are many individuals who now come in with more code experience than the typical college student in the early 90s, there is a significant aspect of "are you mature enough to teach?" and "do you have enough experience to help students that need help?" Assisting teaching a class, maybe. But looking at the quality of the code I wrote and the advice I would give based on that code that I wrote, I would be very concerned for the future prospects of anyone who I taught when I was 21 and looking for a summer job.
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      College students often provide paid tutoring of students a year or two behind them on an ad-hoc basis, should that be prevented? The choice for CCs isn't between student teachers and experienced degree'd teachers. It's between student teachers and no teachers or teachers who know nothing about programming.
      - protomyth 10y ago
        > College students often provide paid tutoring of students a year or two behind them on an ad-hoc basis, should that be prevented? The skills needed to run a classroom and the skills needed to tutor are quite different. I am unaware of any current rules about the education-level of tutors, and I doubt there are or will be any. > The choice for CCs isn't between student teachers and experienced degree'd teachers. It's between student teachers and no teachers or teachers who know nothing about programming. Student teachers (unless part of a TA situation and supervised) probably aren't a solution either unless we're talking certificates and not college credits. Determining Qualified Faculty Through HLC’s Criteria for Accreditation and Assumed Practices: http://download.hlcommission.org/FacultyGuidelines_2016_OPB.pdf http://download.hlcommission.org/FacultyGuidelines_2016_OPB....
        10y ago