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I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to achieve here. Out of curiosity I just headed over to ESR's blog. The thing that stands out most is that 95% of t

I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to achieve here. Out of curiosity I just headed over to ESR's blog. The thing that stands out most is that 95% of the commenters there are uninformed nutcases (and I mean this literally). On the other hand you seem to cherry pick some incidents and exaggerate/misrepresent the facts. Today is the first time ever that I've heard the claim that "thug" has the "n-word" connotation. You are repeatedly mentioning this blog post: http://blog.russnelson.com/economics/blacks-are-lazy.html http://blog.russnelson.com/economics/blacks-are-lazy.html While I think it's superfluous and irrelevant, I don't see nearly and kind of conclusion there that you are drawing here.

DonHopkins 10y ago
Well maybe after you've hung around the hacker news community for more than 22 minutes, you'll begin to understand. I've known Eric Raymond for well over a year to every minute that you've been a member of this community. The "Blacks are Lazy" post you're linking to is the revised post-resignation damage-control edition. The original post is archived here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_lazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_la... Remember, part of "plausible deniability" is being able to mansplain how the term makes sense in a non-racist way. So you're still on the hook to mansplain to me how exactly the members of the open source software community who wanted Russ Nelson to resign are "thugs" perpetrating "violence"? Who threatened Russ's life, exactly? "Name them and shame them" as Raymond says: what are their names? Was it anything like the way Eric S Raymond threatened Bruce Peren's life, then claimed he was "merely" trying to defame him? Does Raymond's death threat meet your definition of "thuggish" behavior? Or do you take Raymond's explanation at face value, that his actual intention was just to defame Perens and not literally kill him, and that makes him a better person than a "thug" that he accuses other members of the open source community of being? Or, like Raymond, is it your believe that white people who threaten other people's lives and attempt to defame them shouldn't be called "thugs", while the term does apply perfectly to members of the open source community who sincerely and non-violently object to an essay entitled "Blacks are Lazy", and would rather not have the person who made such a ridiculous racist claim representing them as their leader? Am I cherry picking by pointing out the hypocrisy? Here are a few easily found references to the "thug" dog whistle -- it's quite common and well documented, and your feigned ignorance is a textbook example of plausible deniability in dog whistle politics. The next formulaic step would be to accuse me of being racist for perceiving the hidden meaning of the dog whistle. The Dog Whistle Has Sounded: How the Right Talks About 'Thugs' Like Trayvon Martin http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-the-right-talks-about-thugs-like-trayvon-martin http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-th... >The most important effect of race-baiting through the dog whistle, however, is that it really does function as bait. When you conspicuously label black kids as "thugs" and white kids as "unruly teens," you bait someone else into noticing it and responding. In this respect, conservative commentators for the last 20 years have been nothing short of masterful. They've turned unregenerate racism into a thought exercise you might as well call "Schrödinger's Black." Dog Whistle Politics: Backwards caps and hippity-hop http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_politics#Backwards_caps_and_hippity-hop http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_politics#Backwards_... >"Thug culture." Just use the n-word, we all know what you're saying anyway.[1][2] It comes off like saying black people are dumb while trying not to sound like they are saying black people are dumb. ("If only black people were smart enough to realize how dumb they really are.") Blowing Racial Dog Whistles: Berkeley Prof Blasts Conservatives For “Coded Messages” http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2014-02-25/blowing-racial-dog-whistles-berkeley-prof-blasts http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2014-... >Lopez says social media is making it easier to identify and discuss dog-whistles when they are used, pointing to the recent Twitter campaign to get people to stop calling Seattle Seahawks defensive player Richard Sherman, a Stanford alum, a “thug.” Lopez hopes such campaigns will prevent Republicans from using dog whistles to attack progressive government—given that he views progressive government as the way to begin resurrecting the middle class. Game Change http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/02/03/game-change-3 http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/02/03/game-change-3 >At a press conference, on Wednesday, Sherman talked about the word “thug”: “The only reason it bothers me is because it seems like it’s the accepted way of calling somebody the N-word nowadays. . . . What’s the definition of a thug, really?” A Dog Whistle By Any Other Name. http://macklyons.blogspot.nl/2014/01/a-dog-whistle-by-any-other-name.html http://macklyons.blogspot.nl/2014/01/a-dog-whistle-by-any-ot... >"Amish." "Thugs." "Ferals." "Holder's People." These codewords usually mean one thing and one thing only when spoken and written in context of black Americans, especially black Americans who are suspected of criminal acts or behaviors. They also thrive in the realm of social acceptability whereas letting anything resembling the dreaded N-word form on your lips could result in a well-deserved round of ostracism.
- 18319381229 10y ago
  This is probably futile, but ESR's original message appears to have been private, so there could not have been any intention of "defaming" Perens. Perens posted the private message on a Debian list: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/04/msg00623.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/04/msg00623.html And received some pushback: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/04/msg00636.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/04/msg00636.html I don't condone ESR's original message and would never write something like that, but again, you are totally exaggerating.
  - DonHopkins 10y ago
    I'm not claiming that that ESR's private message with the threat was the defamation itself. That would come later, in public. The implied "Second Amendment Solution" threat of "I will find a way to make you regret it" is that Raymond the angry gun nut would shoot Perens, but Raymond's plausible denial after the fact was that he actually only meant he would make Perens regret it by attacking his reputation in public. He must feel inspired and vindicated by Trump's antics. I'm still waiting for you to mansplain how Raymond was justified in accusing members of the open source software community of being "fools" and "thugs", and how "thugs" had absolutely nothing to do with the racial context of "Blacks are Lazy".
dragonwriter 10y ago
> The thing that stands out most is that 95% of the commenters there are uninformed nutcases (and I mean this literally). You mean, they are literally containers filled with "fruit consisting of a hard or tough shell around an edible kernel"? > Today is the first time ever that I've heard the claim that "thug" has the "n-word" connotation. And you're accusing other people of being uninformed?

DonHopkins 10y ago

Well maybe after you've hung around the hacker news community for more than 22 minutes, you'll begin to understand. I've known Eric Raymond for well over a year to every minute that you've been a member of this community. The "Blacks are Lazy" post you're linking to is the revised post-resignation damage-control edition. The original post is archived here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_lazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_la... Remember, part of "plausible deniability" is being able to mansplain how the term makes sense in a non-racist way. So you're still on the hook to mansplain to me how exactly the members of the open source software community who wanted Russ Nelson to resign are "thugs" perpetrating "violence"? Who threatened Russ's life, exactly? "Name them and shame them" as Raymond says: what are their names? Was it anything like the way Eric S Raymond threatened Bruce Peren's life, then claimed he was "merely" trying to defame him? Does Raymond's death threat meet your definition of "thuggish" behavior? Or do you take Raymond's explanation at face value, that his actual intention was just to defame Perens and not literally kill him, and that makes him a better person than a "thug" that he accuses other members of the open source community of being? Or, like Raymond, is it your believe that white people who threaten other people's lives and attempt to defame them shouldn't be called "thugs", while the term does apply perfectly to members of the open source community who sincerely and non-violently object to an essay entitled "Blacks are Lazy", and would rather not have the person who made such a ridiculous racist claim representing them as their leader? Am I cherry picking by pointing out the hypocrisy? Here are a few easily found references to the "thug" dog whistle -- it's quite common and well documented, and your feigned ignorance is a textbook example of plausible deniability in dog whistle politics. The next formulaic step would be to accuse me of being racist for perceiving the hidden meaning of the dog whistle. The Dog Whistle Has Sounded: How the Right Talks About 'Thugs' Like Trayvon Martin http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-the-right-talks-about-thugs-like-trayvon-martin http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-th... >The most important effect of race-baiting through the dog whistle, however, is that it really does function as bait. When you conspicuously label black kids as "thugs" and white kids as "unruly teens," you bait someone else into noticing it and responding. In this respect, conservative commentators for the last 20 years have been nothing short of masterful. They've turned unregenerate racism into a thought exercise you might as well call "Schrödinger's Black." Dog Whistle Politics: Backwards caps and hippity-hop http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_politics#Backwards_caps_and_hippity-hop http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_politics#Backwards_... >"Thug culture." Just use the n-word, we all know what you're saying anyway.[1][2] It comes off like saying black people are dumb while trying not to sound like they are saying black people are dumb. ("If only black people were smart enough to realize how dumb they really are.") Blowing Racial Dog Whistles: Berkeley Prof Blasts Conservatives For “Coded Messages” http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2014-02-25/blowing-racial-dog-whistles-berkeley-prof-blasts http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2014-... >Lopez says social media is making it easier to identify and discuss dog-whistles when they are used, pointing to the recent Twitter campaign to get people to stop calling Seattle Seahawks defensive player Richard Sherman, a Stanford alum, a “thug.” Lopez hopes such campaigns will prevent Republicans from using dog whistles to attack progressive government—given that he views progressive government as the way to begin resurrecting the middle class. Game Change http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/02/03/game-change-3 http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/02/03/game-change-3 >At a press conference, on Wednesday, Sherman talked about the word “thug”: “The only reason it bothers me is because it seems like it’s the accepted way of calling somebody the N-word nowadays. . . . What’s the definition of a thug, really?” A Dog Whistle By Any Other Name. http://macklyons.blogspot.nl/2014/01/a-dog-whistle-by-any-other-name.html http://macklyons.blogspot.nl/2014/01/a-dog-whistle-by-any-ot... >"Amish." "Thugs." "Ferals." "Holder's People." These codewords usually mean one thing and one thing only when spoken and written in context of black Americans, especially black Americans who are suspected of criminal acts or behaviors. They also thrive in the realm of social acceptability whereas letting anything resembling the dreaded N-word form on your lips could result in a well-deserved round of ostracism.

18319381229 10y ago
This is probably futile, but ESR's original message appears to have been private, so there could not have been any intention of "defaming" Perens. Perens posted the private message on a Debian list: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/04/msg00623.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/04/msg00623.html And received some pushback: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/04/msg00636.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/04/msg00636.html I don't condone ESR's original message and would never write something like that, but again, you are totally exaggerating.
- DonHopkins 10y ago
  I'm not claiming that that ESR's private message with the threat was the defamation itself. That would come later, in public. The implied "Second Amendment Solution" threat of "I will find a way to make you regret it" is that Raymond the angry gun nut would shoot Perens, but Raymond's plausible denial after the fact was that he actually only meant he would make Perens regret it by attacking his reputation in public. He must feel inspired and vindicated by Trump's antics. I'm still waiting for you to mansplain how Raymond was justified in accusing members of the open source software community of being "fools" and "thugs", and how "thugs" had absolutely nothing to do with the racial context of "Blacks are Lazy".

dragonwriter 10y ago

> The thing that stands out most is that 95% of the commenters there are uninformed nutcases (and I mean this literally). You mean, they are literally containers filled with "fruit consisting of a hard or tough shell around an edible kernel"? > Today is the first time ever that I've heard the claim that "thug" has the "n-word" connotation. And you're accusing other people of being uninformed?