8 ms·

Also, the article kept mentioning the 90K salary number -- not sure why the article presented such great prospects and had a doom-and-gloom outlook for the peop

by grok2 10y ago

Also, the article kept mentioning the 90K salary number -- not sure why the article presented such great prospects and had a doom-and-gloom outlook for the people. To me it looked like the people profiled in the article seemed to have varied, fulfilling lives....maybe I am not getting something.

s_q_b 10y ago
Yeah, I got that too. How is a $90,000 starting salary for a javascript bootcamp grad a sign of the end of days? It seems to me the problem is occurring as the "millennials" want to settle down in mid-life, buy a house, buy a car, have kids, and save for their college. In short, the middle class baby boomer lifestyle seems completely out of reach for most in their twenties and thirties.
- pnathan 10y ago
  > In short, the middle class baby boomer lifestyle seems completely out of reach for most in their twenties and thirties. Seattle houses (condos on the market are usually pretty fancy and on par with house prices) are roughly 450K on the low end; neighboring cities hew to that, with the usual SES modifiers. So if you're making, say, 100K/yr salary, your conservative financial buy of a house is about 300K. Welp. There you go. No house for you. The trick here is that it's leaving out the key aspect: 90K for a bootcamp grad is great pay. It's excellent if you're 22 years old, and want to save for a house over 10 years. In a decade your salary will probably be between 140 and 200, not counting inflation. This is great. If, however, you've farted around following your dreams or just want a new career, you're 32, maybe you have a kid or want one, you are looking at a different time run way for saving, different personal needs, maybe you have health issues, maybe you have a family, maybe they have health issues. I would argue that the key issue here is the stupid high cost of housing that has been produced by stupid anti-development laws.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    >stupid high cost of housing that has been produced by stupid anti-development laws That's a convenient bogeyman. That's not to say there isn't truth to it--more or less depending upon the locale. But at least an equal driver is the relatively sudden desire of certain demographics to live in a handful of urban areas. I'd add that if someone has farted around until they're 32 and just getting ready to think about starting a career, I'm not sure in what period they'd be in good shape to buy a house in anything considered a passable neighborhood with employment possibilities.
    - pnathan 10y ago
      > That's a convenient bogeyman. That's not to say there isn't truth to it--more or less depending upon the locale. But at least an equal driver is the relatively sudden desire of certain demographics to live in a handful of urban areas. That's true! I'm in Seattle, which is undergoing a job boom and concomitant low supply of housing. Lots of people are like "I WANT A JOB" and showing up. > I'd add that if someone has farted around until they're 32 and just getting ready to think about starting a career, I'm not sure in what period they'd be in good shape to buy a house in anything considered a passable neighborhood with employment possibilities. Mmm.... wiggles hands depends on what era and what locale. It's been definitely doable in the less-urban areas. Still true today in the right intersection of suburban and employment area. And of course, the US Gov has been doing various amounts of subsidizing over time for different blocks. edit: oh yes. There's a really complicated set of class/aspirational class thing where working in trades is often looked down upon, and (starving) artists are looked up to, and often it's seen as better (by some) to be unemployed and looking for working in your chosen field than employed in a crappy job and looking for your chosen work. I don't think it's very well understood - at least from my reading - and certainly it's not economically effective for the US population.
      - ghaff 10y ago
        >Mmm.... wiggles hands depends on what era and what locale. Fair enough. There certainly used to be more opportunities for someone at 32 who was willing to work reliably and hard even if they weren't educated or otherwise have a developed set of skills. And, as you say, some of this is related to "the trades" not being viewed as appropriate work by certain demographics. (Of course, many trades require significant skill and it may be difficult to get started if you don't have the right connections.)
- hrehhf 10y ago
  > $90,000 starting salary for a javascript bootcamp grad That is not a realistic expectation in Seattle.

by grok2 10y ago

s_q_b 10y ago

Yeah, I got that too. How is a $90,000 starting salary for a javascript bootcamp grad a sign of the end of days? It seems to me the problem is occurring as the "millennials" want to settle down in mid-life, buy a house, buy a car, have kids, and save for their college. In short, the middle class baby boomer lifestyle seems completely out of reach for most in their twenties and thirties.

pnathan 10y ago
> In short, the middle class baby boomer lifestyle seems completely out of reach for most in their twenties and thirties. Seattle houses (condos on the market are usually pretty fancy and on par with house prices) are roughly 450K on the low end; neighboring cities hew to that, with the usual SES modifiers. So if you're making, say, 100K/yr salary, your conservative financial buy of a house is about 300K. Welp. There you go. No house for you. The trick here is that it's leaving out the key aspect: 90K for a bootcamp grad is great pay. It's excellent if you're 22 years old, and want to save for a house over 10 years. In a decade your salary will probably be between 140 and 200, not counting inflation. This is great. If, however, you've farted around following your dreams or just want a new career, you're 32, maybe you have a kid or want one, you are looking at a different time run way for saving, different personal needs, maybe you have health issues, maybe you have a family, maybe they have health issues. I would argue that the key issue here is the stupid high cost of housing that has been produced by stupid anti-development laws.
- ghaff 10y ago
  >stupid high cost of housing that has been produced by stupid anti-development laws That's a convenient bogeyman. That's not to say there isn't truth to it--more or less depending upon the locale. But at least an equal driver is the relatively sudden desire of certain demographics to live in a handful of urban areas. I'd add that if someone has farted around until they're 32 and just getting ready to think about starting a career, I'm not sure in what period they'd be in good shape to buy a house in anything considered a passable neighborhood with employment possibilities.
  - pnathan 10y ago
    > That's a convenient bogeyman. That's not to say there isn't truth to it--more or less depending upon the locale. But at least an equal driver is the relatively sudden desire of certain demographics to live in a handful of urban areas. That's true! I'm in Seattle, which is undergoing a job boom and concomitant low supply of housing. Lots of people are like "I WANT A JOB" and showing up. > I'd add that if someone has farted around until they're 32 and just getting ready to think about starting a career, I'm not sure in what period they'd be in good shape to buy a house in anything considered a passable neighborhood with employment possibilities. Mmm.... wiggles hands depends on what era and what locale. It's been definitely doable in the less-urban areas. Still true today in the right intersection of suburban and employment area. And of course, the US Gov has been doing various amounts of subsidizing over time for different blocks. edit: oh yes. There's a really complicated set of class/aspirational class thing where working in trades is often looked down upon, and (starving) artists are looked up to, and often it's seen as better (by some) to be unemployed and looking for working in your chosen field than employed in a crappy job and looking for your chosen work. I don't think it's very well understood - at least from my reading - and certainly it's not economically effective for the US population.
    - ghaff 10y ago
      >Mmm.... wiggles hands depends on what era and what locale. Fair enough. There certainly used to be more opportunities for someone at 32 who was willing to work reliably and hard even if they weren't educated or otherwise have a developed set of skills. And, as you say, some of this is related to "the trades" not being viewed as appropriate work by certain demographics. (Of course, many trades require significant skill and it may be difficult to get started if you don't have the right connections.)
hrehhf 10y ago
> $90,000 starting salary for a javascript bootcamp grad That is not a realistic expectation in Seattle.