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Just this week, I've been collecting feedback from my team. Some of the most powerful I received was, "Since you took over, I feel like I've gotten more done wi

Just this week, I've been collecting feedback from my team. Some of the most powerful I received was, "Since you took over, I feel like I've gotten more done with so much less stress and extra hours. Until you came in, I didn't believe that we could really have work-life-balance and be MORE productive and now I know we can." Having been in companies where my approach has been called everything from "lazy" to outright "damaging," this feedback was both rewarding and validating. Edit: For those who are in jobs where you're putting in those long hours, I can tell you there are managers out there who believe in the message here. I have three of them working for me right now and I constantly reinforce the philosophy of working sustainably. Don't settle for less than a manager who respects you the person--not just you the engineer!

ncallaway 10y ago
Totally agree. We're running a team with engineers working 20 hours a week. That seems like about the amount of "productive engineering time" that most people have in them in a week, regardless of how many hours they actually spend working. It's a bit of an experiment, but I have to say that I'm really happy with what it's doing for us. Our engineers are still quite productive. Their work life balance is good, so we can avoid burnout (though this will take a long time to actually prove). And, finally, it gives us a _huge_ competitive advantage when it comes to hiring top quality engineers.
- yojex 10y ago
  Would you mind letting us know where this is?
  - ncallaway 10y ago
    Sure. We're a small consulting company called Apsis Labs (http://apsis.io/ http://apsis.io/). We started in Seattle, although our hiring has been entirely remote across the US and Canada.
    - talmand 10y ago
      Cue the sudden influx of resume submissions.
  - ihsw 10y ago
    I'm not him but it seems his company (apsis.io) deals with Rails, React, Unity3d, and AWS. The company (Apsis) been around since 2014 so they're probably a successful small startup with some runway.
- jtrtoo 10y ago
  Neat. Checked out your web site and really like your philosophy! I'm a solo consultant going into my tenth consecutive year. I too have found that >20 hours definitely throws off the balance. It's still a work in progress, but that 20 hour mark is about what consider my level of useful (high impact) hours. I understand what you do for employees of your firm, but how do you apply your philosophy to yourself (and the other principals)? Client work is one thing, but there's plenty of non-client work too. Particularly in a small firm!
  - nathan_f77 10y ago
    I'm also a solo consultant (really just a contractor), and I've been working 20 hour weeks for the last month or so. I'm finding that I actually don't feel productive enough, mainly because I'm working for a small unlaunched startup, and they are really itching to launch. I mean, I'm still feeling productive for those 4 hours, but when I'm in "the zone", I can focus for much longer. When I'm work on a personal startup or side project, I often spend all day on it, maybe with a few breaks for food. I'm holding fast to my 4 hour days, but I'm starting to feel like it's not ideal to be the sole part-time developer on a project that needs to launch soon. But I suppose this could probably be mitigated if they hired another 1 or 2 developers.
    - epalmer 10y ago
      I used to be a consultant and went through periods of Uber productivity for 30 to 40 hours a week. When I was in this phase I let my productivity and creativity drive my total weekly effort. Being in the flow feels good and leads to better solutions. But it is not sustainable week after week. Now 30 years later, at 62 years old, I just can't sustain more than 20 hours per week of coding, software design or pre project planning for complex projects. I now find productivity and pleasure doing some of the administrative work managing my team and reporting up. Actually have a new boss and he is asking for lots of data and more. Right now his questions seem valid so it is not a burden. If he learns and grows great. If his information needs don't die down in a few months this may be a burden. Edit: typos. Need coffee.
  - Loic 10y ago
- dvtv75 10y ago
  I'm very curious about this, especially in the long run. Do you need to hire extra staff to work the "other" 20 hours that isn't worked, or do you find your staff are producing about as much in their 20 hours as they would in a 40 hour working week?
taurath 10y ago
It really is on the manager and the top level. I've been at startups where 70hrs a week is the minimum "commitment" level because that's what the executives think will get them their product fastest. It doesn't translate to faster shipping - only a culture of no balance and turnover rates start to creep in.
- shandor 10y ago
  > turnover rates start to creep in. This is the biggest thing baffling me on this whole thing. I mean, it is absolutely critical for a startup to get their product out ASAP, right? And everyone can probably agree that having a high turnover of engineers is absolutely devastating to that goal, since one leaver's knowledge is a hefty amount of the overall know-how in a small company, right? So,shouldn't these startups be holding on to their good hires like a drowning man to something floating, instead of whipping them to yet another death march?
  - zubat 10y ago
    The answer, I think, is that the majority aren't engineering firms but are led by sales.
dominotw 10y ago
how does the reward structure work in this case. Are workaholics paid more compared to people who prefer work-life balance?
- winter_blue 10y ago
  I've never heard of software companies paying you more because you stayed late. If anything, theae people working late are getting seriously ripped off. Not only do they lose health, mental peace, the joy of life, and happiness -- they also end up effectively making less per hour.
  - bcrescimanno 10y ago
    > I've never heard of software companies paying you more because you stayed late. I don't think they do directly; but, there are a lot of bad managers out there to value hard work and firefighting above all else. So it's very common to see the distribution of rewards slanting heavily towards the "24/7 available people."
    - jtrtoo 10y ago
      An aside to your comment (but not a direct response to you since you're just relating a too common situation): Hard work is not the polar opposite of working efficiently.
      - bcrescimanno 10y ago
        No, it's not. But people aren't stupid (at least, if you hire well) and it's often-observed that the simple act of "being there" is rewarded. An anecdote from my past: two simultaneous projects; I'm the lead engineer on one and another person, more senior than me, is the lead on the other. I work with my team and we deliver ahead of schedule and with features that the product managers had become accustomed to being told, "no, that's too hard" by the engineering teams. The other project fell far behind, had the whole team working in a war room 12-18 hours per day for weeks. Guess which team got big bonuses and publicly recognized for their work? I left a few months later.
agumonkey 10y ago
Such a bliss when you make your colleagues functionning better. Kudos
greenshackle 10y ago
I've found that I can tell my team, sorry my brain isn't working anymore, there's no point in staying any later, and they understand. Actually when I tried telling my manager that, he answered, why are you telling me this, I don't care what hours you work, as long as you get the job done.
- jtrtoo 10y ago
  Your manager sounds like he is focused on the appropriate metrics and is earning his keep.
  - franciscop 10y ago
    But also sounds like he is not communicating neither the metrics nor the expectations well enough to the team
rb808 10y ago
Do you try to stop people from working second jobs or too many side projects? This is the big issue for me. I'd like to make 30 hour week standard - but I'd probably just spend 10-20 hours on side projects, still spending 40-50 hours a week total. I'd prefer that obviously, but I can't say my employer would be better off.
- Swizec 10y ago
  You're essentially paying for your own training. That's awesome.
  - franciscop 10y ago
    Never saw it from that point of view, but that is totally true.
- jtrtoo 10y ago
  Are you sure they wouldn't be? If you're a knowledge worker, your value is in your brain. If it makes you happier on the job, lowers turnover, and helps keep you refreshed ...side project away!
- bcrescimanno 10y ago
  No. Sustainable pace is important; respecting people's right to be who they are is more important. Here's my thing: if my management team and I are paying attention, we'll see people's performance suffering if they were to be overworking themselves outside of our work.
itamarst 10y ago
Hi, Original poster here - would you (and any other manager reading this thread who feels this way) be interested in talking to me about how you manage for these goals? itamar@codewithoutrules.com.
- bcrescimanno 10y ago
  Happy to chat--traveling this week. You can find my email address easily enough; feel free to email me. :)

ncallaway 10y ago

Totally agree. We're running a team with engineers working 20 hours a week. That seems like about the amount of "productive engineering time" that most people have in them in a week, regardless of how many hours they actually spend working. It's a bit of an experiment, but I have to say that I'm really happy with what it's doing for us. Our engineers are still quite productive. Their work life balance is good, so we can avoid burnout (though this will take a long time to actually prove). And, finally, it gives us a _huge_ competitive advantage when it comes to hiring top quality engineers.

yojex 10y ago
Would you mind letting us know where this is?
- ncallaway 10y ago
  Sure. We're a small consulting company called Apsis Labs (http://apsis.io/ http://apsis.io/). We started in Seattle, although our hiring has been entirely remote across the US and Canada.
  - talmand 10y ago
    Cue the sudden influx of resume submissions.
- ihsw 10y ago
  I'm not him but it seems his company (apsis.io) deals with Rails, React, Unity3d, and AWS. The company (Apsis) been around since 2014 so they're probably a successful small startup with some runway.
jtrtoo 10y ago
Neat. Checked out your web site and really like your philosophy! I'm a solo consultant going into my tenth consecutive year. I too have found that >20 hours definitely throws off the balance. It's still a work in progress, but that 20 hour mark is about what consider my level of useful (high impact) hours. I understand what you do for employees of your firm, but how do you apply your philosophy to yourself (and the other principals)? Client work is one thing, but there's plenty of non-client work too. Particularly in a small firm!
- nathan_f77 10y ago
  I'm also a solo consultant (really just a contractor), and I've been working 20 hour weeks for the last month or so. I'm finding that I actually don't feel productive enough, mainly because I'm working for a small unlaunched startup, and they are really itching to launch. I mean, I'm still feeling productive for those 4 hours, but when I'm in "the zone", I can focus for much longer. When I'm work on a personal startup or side project, I often spend all day on it, maybe with a few breaks for food. I'm holding fast to my 4 hour days, but I'm starting to feel like it's not ideal to be the sole part-time developer on a project that needs to launch soon. But I suppose this could probably be mitigated if they hired another 1 or 2 developers.
  - epalmer 10y ago
    I used to be a consultant and went through periods of Uber productivity for 30 to 40 hours a week. When I was in this phase I let my productivity and creativity drive my total weekly effort. Being in the flow feels good and leads to better solutions. But it is not sustainable week after week. Now 30 years later, at 62 years old, I just can't sustain more than 20 hours per week of coding, software design or pre project planning for complex projects. I now find productivity and pleasure doing some of the administrative work managing my team and reporting up. Actually have a new boss and he is asking for lots of data and more. Right now his questions seem valid so it is not a burden. If he learns and grows great. If his information needs don't die down in a few months this may be a burden. Edit: typos. Need coffee.
- Loic 10y ago
dvtv75 10y ago
I'm very curious about this, especially in the long run. Do you need to hire extra staff to work the "other" 20 hours that isn't worked, or do you find your staff are producing about as much in their 20 hours as they would in a 40 hour working week?

taurath 10y ago

It really is on the manager and the top level. I've been at startups where 70hrs a week is the minimum "commitment" level because that's what the executives think will get them their product fastest. It doesn't translate to faster shipping - only a culture of no balance and turnover rates start to creep in.

shandor 10y ago
> turnover rates start to creep in. This is the biggest thing baffling me on this whole thing. I mean, it is absolutely critical for a startup to get their product out ASAP, right? And everyone can probably agree that having a high turnover of engineers is absolutely devastating to that goal, since one leaver's knowledge is a hefty amount of the overall know-how in a small company, right? So,shouldn't these startups be holding on to their good hires like a drowning man to something floating, instead of whipping them to yet another death march?
- zubat 10y ago
  The answer, I think, is that the majority aren't engineering firms but are led by sales.

dominotw 10y ago

how does the reward structure work in this case. Are workaholics paid more compared to people who prefer work-life balance?

winter_blue 10y ago
I've never heard of software companies paying you more because you stayed late. If anything, theae people working late are getting seriously ripped off. Not only do they lose health, mental peace, the joy of life, and happiness -- they also end up effectively making less per hour.
- bcrescimanno 10y ago
  > I've never heard of software companies paying you more because you stayed late. I don't think they do directly; but, there are a lot of bad managers out there to value hard work and firefighting above all else. So it's very common to see the distribution of rewards slanting heavily towards the "24/7 available people."
  - jtrtoo 10y ago
    An aside to your comment (but not a direct response to you since you're just relating a too common situation): Hard work is not the polar opposite of working efficiently.
    - bcrescimanno 10y ago
      No, it's not. But people aren't stupid (at least, if you hire well) and it's often-observed that the simple act of "being there" is rewarded. An anecdote from my past: two simultaneous projects; I'm the lead engineer on one and another person, more senior than me, is the lead on the other. I work with my team and we deliver ahead of schedule and with features that the product managers had become accustomed to being told, "no, that's too hard" by the engineering teams. The other project fell far behind, had the whole team working in a war room 12-18 hours per day for weeks. Guess which team got big bonuses and publicly recognized for their work? I left a few months later.

agumonkey 10y ago

Such a bliss when you make your colleagues functionning better. Kudos

greenshackle 10y ago

I've found that I can tell my team, sorry my brain isn't working anymore, there's no point in staying any later, and they understand. Actually when I tried telling my manager that, he answered, why are you telling me this, I don't care what hours you work, as long as you get the job done.

jtrtoo 10y ago
Your manager sounds like he is focused on the appropriate metrics and is earning his keep.
- franciscop 10y ago
  But also sounds like he is not communicating neither the metrics nor the expectations well enough to the team

rb808 10y ago

Do you try to stop people from working second jobs or too many side projects? This is the big issue for me. I'd like to make 30 hour week standard - but I'd probably just spend 10-20 hours on side projects, still spending 40-50 hours a week total. I'd prefer that obviously, but I can't say my employer would be better off.

Swizec 10y ago
You're essentially paying for your own training. That's awesome.
- franciscop 10y ago
  Never saw it from that point of view, but that is totally true.
jtrtoo 10y ago
Are you sure they wouldn't be? If you're a knowledge worker, your value is in your brain. If it makes you happier on the job, lowers turnover, and helps keep you refreshed ...side project away!
bcrescimanno 10y ago
No. Sustainable pace is important; respecting people's right to be who they are is more important. Here's my thing: if my management team and I are paying attention, we'll see people's performance suffering if they were to be overworking themselves outside of our work.

itamarst 10y ago

Hi, Original poster here - would you (and any other manager reading this thread who feels this way) be interested in talking to me about how you manage for these goals? itamar@codewithoutrules.com.

bcrescimanno 10y ago
Happy to chat--traveling this week. You can find my email address easily enough; feel free to email me. :)