3 ms·

You cite a bunch of people echochambering how much of a big, bad racist ESR is and call him names. The two direct quotes from him make policy points about drama

You cite a bunch of people echochambering how much of a big, bad racist ESR is and call him names. The two direct quotes from him make policy points about drama from employees belonging to a group known for same and about anti-racism being used as a motivation for handwaving what he claims is a valid demographic observation. Even if you don't agree with his (nutzo!) politics you should refrain from repeating sloppy arguments against him. EDIT: Also, the dogwhistle thing is bullshit. ESR basically never attempts to, in my observation, hide what he's saying. I see where 'thug' has been used by others as slang, but with a lot of people, especially of intellectual background, it is closer to its original term of derision towards anti-intellectuals and folks who would use violence to suppress opposing viewpoints.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago
I would actually agree on that.
DonHopkins 10y ago
Maybe I've been observing him for longer and more closely than you have. Using the word "thug" in a conversation about street fighters is one thing. But using it to viciously attack people in the open source community who take offense at an idiotic click-bait essay entitled "Blacks are Lazy" that you happen to agree with is something else entirely. With dog whistles, context matters. You have read the essay, haven't you? Do you agree with Russ's premise, and do you think he should have resigned or not? And do you think everyone who called on Russ to resign is a "fool" and a "thug"? If not, then what do you think he really mean by that term? And who exactly was being "anti-intellectual", and using "violence" to "suppress his opposing viewpoints" and force him to resign, as you claim? Remember: Eric S Raymond is the gun nut who who made death threats against Bruce Perens, which he excused it as merely trying to "defame" him. Nobody ever threatened Russ Nelson's life for claiming that "Blacks are Lazy" or Eric Raymond's life for agreeing with him and defending him. I've already had this discussion about dog whistles with him in the comments section of his blog, and he and his followers deny that there is even such a thing as a "dog whistle". According to them, the entire concept of "dog whistles" is just part of a made-up conspiracy to paint the far right wing as racist, because they don't hear any dog whistles, and anyway: if you admit to hearing the whistle, that makes you racist yourself [1]. As if their own words and actions weren't enough. Do you really agree with ESR and his followers that there's no such thing as "dog whistle politics"? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dog-whistle_politics#Is_this_even_real.3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dog-whistle_politics#Is_t...
- 0981239128 10y ago
  I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to achieve here. Out of curiosity I just headed over to ESR's blog. The thing that stands out most is that 95% of the commenters there are uninformed nutcases (and I mean this literally). On the other hand you seem to cherry pick some incidents and exaggerate/misrepresent the facts. Today is the first time ever that I've heard the claim that "thug" has the "n-word" connotation. You are repeatedly mentioning this blog post: http://blog.russnelson.com/economics/blacks-are-lazy.html http://blog.russnelson.com/economics/blacks-are-lazy.html While I think it's superfluous and irrelevant, I don't see nearly and kind of conclusion there that you are drawing here.
  - DonHopkins 10y ago
    Well maybe after you've hung around the hacker news community for more than 22 minutes, you'll begin to understand. I've known Eric Raymond for well over a year to every minute that you've been a member of this community. The "Blacks are Lazy" post you're linking to is the revised post-resignation damage-control edition. The original post is archived here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_lazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_la... Remember, part of "plausible deniability" is being able to mansplain how the term makes sense in a non-racist way. So you're still on the hook to mansplain to me how exactly the members of the open source software community who wanted Russ Nelson to resign are "thugs" perpetrating "violence"? Who threatened Russ's life, exactly? "Name them and shame them" as Raymond says: what are their names? Was it anything like the way Eric S Raymond threatened Bruce Peren's life, then claimed he was "merely" trying to defame him? Does Raymond's death threat meet your definition of "thuggish" behavior? Or do you take Raymond's explanation at face value, that his actual intention was just to defame Perens and not literally kill him, and that makes him a better person than a "thug" that he accuses other members of the open source community of being? Or, like Raymond, is it your believe that white people who threaten other people's lives and attempt to defame them shouldn't be called "thugs", while the term does apply perfectly to members of the open source community who sincerely and non-violently object to an essay entitled "Blacks are Lazy", and would rather not have the person who made such a ridiculous racist claim representing them as their leader? Am I cherry picking by pointing out the hypocrisy? Here are a few easily found references to the "thug" dog whistle -- it's quite common and well documented, and your feigned ignorance is a textbook example of plausible deniability in dog whistle politics. The next formulaic step would be to accuse me of being racist for perceiving the hidden meaning of the dog whistle. The Dog Whistle Has Sounded: How the Right Talks About 'Thugs' Like Trayvon Martin http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-the-right-talks-about-thugs-like-trayvon-martin http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-th... >The most important effect of race-baiting through the dog whistle, however, is that it really does function as bait. When you conspicuously label black kids as "thugs" and white kids as "unruly teens," you bait someone else into noticing it and responding. In this respect, conservative commentators for the last 20 years have been nothing short of masterful. They've turned unregenerate racism into a thought exercise you might as well call "Schrödinger's Black." Dog Whistle Politics: Backwards caps and hippity-hop http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_politics#Backwards_caps_and_hippity-hop http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_politics#Backwards_... >"Thug culture." Just use the n-word, we all know what you're saying anyway.[1][2] It comes off like saying black people are dumb while trying not to sound like they are saying black people are dumb. ("If only black people were smart enough to realize how dumb they really are.") Blowing Racial Dog Whistles: Berkeley Prof Blasts Conservatives For “Coded Messages” http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2014-02-25/blowing-racial-dog-whistles-berkeley-prof-blasts http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2014-... >Lopez says social media is making it easier to identify and discuss dog-whistles when they are used, pointing to the recent Twitter campaign to get people to stop calling Seattle Seahawks defensive player Richard Sherman, a Stanford alum, a “thug.” Lopez hopes such campaigns will prevent Republicans from using dog whistles to attack progressive government—given that he views progressive government as the way to begin resurrecting the middle class. Game Change http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/02/03/game-change-3 http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/02/03/game-change-3 >At a press conference, on Wednesday, Sherman talked about the word “thug”: “The only reason it bothers me is because it seems like it’s the accepted way of calling somebody the N-word nowadays. . . . What’s the definition of a thug, really?” A Dog Whistle By Any Other Name. http://macklyons.blogspot.nl/2014/01/a-dog-whistle-by-any-other-name.html http://macklyons.blogspot.nl/2014/01/a-dog-whistle-by-any-ot... >"Amish." "Thugs." "Ferals." "Holder's People." These codewords usually mean one thing and one thing only when spoken and written in context of black Americans, especially black Americans who are suspected of criminal acts or behaviors. They also thrive in the realm of social acceptability whereas letting anything resembling the dreaded N-word form on your lips could result in a well-deserved round of ostracism.
ihaveahadron 10y ago
Where is the threshold that makes a person an intellectual? We can't use IQ, as that has been shown to be pseudoscience. So what is it? It's nothing. Intellectual is a useless, empty word, used by morons.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

I would actually agree on that.

DonHopkins 10y ago

Maybe I've been observing him for longer and more closely than you have. Using the word "thug" in a conversation about street fighters is one thing. But using it to viciously attack people in the open source community who take offense at an idiotic click-bait essay entitled "Blacks are Lazy" that you happen to agree with is something else entirely. With dog whistles, context matters. You have read the essay, haven't you? Do you agree with Russ's premise, and do you think he should have resigned or not? And do you think everyone who called on Russ to resign is a "fool" and a "thug"? If not, then what do you think he really mean by that term? And who exactly was being "anti-intellectual", and using "violence" to "suppress his opposing viewpoints" and force him to resign, as you claim? Remember: Eric S Raymond is the gun nut who who made death threats against Bruce Perens, which he excused it as merely trying to "defame" him. Nobody ever threatened Russ Nelson's life for claiming that "Blacks are Lazy" or Eric Raymond's life for agreeing with him and defending him. I've already had this discussion about dog whistles with him in the comments section of his blog, and he and his followers deny that there is even such a thing as a "dog whistle". According to them, the entire concept of "dog whistles" is just part of a made-up conspiracy to paint the far right wing as racist, because they don't hear any dog whistles, and anyway: if you admit to hearing the whistle, that makes you racist yourself [1]. As if their own words and actions weren't enough. Do you really agree with ESR and his followers that there's no such thing as "dog whistle politics"? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dog-whistle_politics#Is_this_even_real.3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dog-whistle_politics#Is_t...

0981239128 10y ago
I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to achieve here. Out of curiosity I just headed over to ESR's blog. The thing that stands out most is that 95% of the commenters there are uninformed nutcases (and I mean this literally). On the other hand you seem to cherry pick some incidents and exaggerate/misrepresent the facts. Today is the first time ever that I've heard the claim that "thug" has the "n-word" connotation. You are repeatedly mentioning this blog post: http://blog.russnelson.com/economics/blacks-are-lazy.html http://blog.russnelson.com/economics/blacks-are-lazy.html While I think it's superfluous and irrelevant, I don't see nearly and kind of conclusion there that you are drawing here.
- DonHopkins 10y ago
  Well maybe after you've hung around the hacker news community for more than 22 minutes, you'll begin to understand. I've known Eric Raymond for well over a year to every minute that you've been a member of this community. The "Blacks are Lazy" post you're linking to is the revised post-resignation damage-control edition. The original post is archived here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_lazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Russ_Nelson#Blacks_are_la... Remember, part of "plausible deniability" is being able to mansplain how the term makes sense in a non-racist way. So you're still on the hook to mansplain to me how exactly the members of the open source software community who wanted Russ Nelson to resign are "thugs" perpetrating "violence"? Who threatened Russ's life, exactly? "Name them and shame them" as Raymond says: what are their names? Was it anything like the way Eric S Raymond threatened Bruce Peren's life, then claimed he was "merely" trying to defame him? Does Raymond's death threat meet your definition of "thuggish" behavior? Or do you take Raymond's explanation at face value, that his actual intention was just to defame Perens and not literally kill him, and that makes him a better person than a "thug" that he accuses other members of the open source community of being? Or, like Raymond, is it your believe that white people who threaten other people's lives and attempt to defame them shouldn't be called "thugs", while the term does apply perfectly to members of the open source community who sincerely and non-violently object to an essay entitled "Blacks are Lazy", and would rather not have the person who made such a ridiculous racist claim representing them as their leader? Am I cherry picking by pointing out the hypocrisy? Here are a few easily found references to the "thug" dog whistle -- it's quite common and well documented, and your feigned ignorance is a textbook example of plausible deniability in dog whistle politics. The next formulaic step would be to accuse me of being racist for perceiving the hidden meaning of the dog whistle. The Dog Whistle Has Sounded: How the Right Talks About 'Thugs' Like Trayvon Martin http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-the-right-talks-about-thugs-like-trayvon-martin http://gawker.com/5899322/the-dog-whistle-has-sounded-how-th... >The most important effect of race-baiting through the dog whistle, however, is that it really does function as bait. When you conspicuously label black kids as "thugs" and white kids as "unruly teens," you bait someone else into noticing it and responding. In this respect, conservative commentators for the last 20 years have been nothing short of masterful. They've turned unregenerate racism into a thought exercise you might as well call "Schrödinger's Black." Dog Whistle Politics: Backwards caps and hippity-hop http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_politics#Backwards_caps_and_hippity-hop http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_politics#Backwards_... >"Thug culture." Just use the n-word, we all know what you're saying anyway.[1][2] It comes off like saying black people are dumb while trying not to sound like they are saying black people are dumb. ("If only black people were smart enough to realize how dumb they really are.") Blowing Racial Dog Whistles: Berkeley Prof Blasts Conservatives For “Coded Messages” http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2014-02-25/blowing-racial-dog-whistles-berkeley-prof-blasts http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2014-... >Lopez says social media is making it easier to identify and discuss dog-whistles when they are used, pointing to the recent Twitter campaign to get people to stop calling Seattle Seahawks defensive player Richard Sherman, a Stanford alum, a “thug.” Lopez hopes such campaigns will prevent Republicans from using dog whistles to attack progressive government—given that he views progressive government as the way to begin resurrecting the middle class. Game Change http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/02/03/game-change-3 http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/02/03/game-change-3 >At a press conference, on Wednesday, Sherman talked about the word “thug”: “The only reason it bothers me is because it seems like it’s the accepted way of calling somebody the N-word nowadays. . . . What’s the definition of a thug, really?” A Dog Whistle By Any Other Name. http://macklyons.blogspot.nl/2014/01/a-dog-whistle-by-any-other-name.html http://macklyons.blogspot.nl/2014/01/a-dog-whistle-by-any-ot... >"Amish." "Thugs." "Ferals." "Holder's People." These codewords usually mean one thing and one thing only when spoken and written in context of black Americans, especially black Americans who are suspected of criminal acts or behaviors. They also thrive in the realm of social acceptability whereas letting anything resembling the dreaded N-word form on your lips could result in a well-deserved round of ostracism.

ihaveahadron 10y ago

Where is the threshold that makes a person an intellectual? We can't use IQ, as that has been shown to be pseudoscience. So what is it? It's nothing. Intellectual is a useless, empty word, used by morons.