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Interesting insight on olfaction. Quantum involvement (e.g. selective wave-form collapse) is about the only viable possibility I can see for escaping determinis

Interesting insight on olfaction. Quantum involvement (e.g. selective wave-form collapse) is about the only viable possibility I can see for escaping determinism and allowing free will (and even then we're pushing current physics firmly into pop-sci fiction).

dnautics 10y ago
While I'm a fan of torins hypothesis in general, the specific molecule highlighted in the article (borane) has a much simpler, traditional reason for smelling like rotten eggs due to disulfide bond reduction reaction.
FeepingCreature 10y ago
Quantum does not rescue free will. "Random" is "free" in the sense that a wheel has "three degrees of freedom" when it's not attached to the axle.
- nopassrecover 10y ago
  You're right that it doesn't necessarily rescue free will. That's why I said, selective pop-sci wave-collapse (as in some imaginary mechanism for free will that leverages a quantum avenue). Determinism (in most accounts) precludes free will. Therefore randomness is necessary but not sufficient for free will. Quantum mechanics is the only avenue we have for randomness/non-determinism, so if free will does exist, it's going to have to involve some sort of quantum "magic". It's certainly possible to imagine consciousness based on quantum mechanics (ala Penrose) that facilitates some level of choice by selectively collapsing wave-forms (not just randomly collapsing them) and is still compatible with a macro-deterministic universe.
  - FeepingCreature 10y ago
    Yeah but there seems to be some kind of belief that quantum is somehow "less lawful" in a way that would rescue it from the conflict with determinism. Which simply doesn't work - either it's random, in which case it's not Will, or it's determined by something else, such as consciousness, in which case it's not any more Free than classical physics. (Personally, Compatibilism offers the only satisfactory way out.)
PeterisP 10y ago
The concept of "escaping determinism" or "rescuing free will" seems weird to me. For any of the very different definitions of free will there a bunch of arguments about whether they are true or not in our reality - but "I don't like the consequences" is not one of them. Free will is not something that needs to be saved. We can't save it, we can't change it, we can't create it if it's not there, we can't remove it from the universe if it's there. It exists (or not) in some particular way, and that's it. It would be interesting to find out definitely, but that wouldn't really change anything; and I don't believe if there's anything in our behaviour that should change upon finding it out.

dnautics 10y ago

While I'm a fan of torins hypothesis in general, the specific molecule highlighted in the article (borane) has a much simpler, traditional reason for smelling like rotten eggs due to disulfide bond reduction reaction.

FeepingCreature 10y ago

Quantum does not rescue free will. "Random" is "free" in the sense that a wheel has "three degrees of freedom" when it's not attached to the axle.

nopassrecover 10y ago
You're right that it doesn't necessarily rescue free will. That's why I said, selective pop-sci wave-collapse (as in some imaginary mechanism for free will that leverages a quantum avenue). Determinism (in most accounts) precludes free will. Therefore randomness is necessary but not sufficient for free will. Quantum mechanics is the only avenue we have for randomness/non-determinism, so if free will does exist, it's going to have to involve some sort of quantum "magic". It's certainly possible to imagine consciousness based on quantum mechanics (ala Penrose) that facilitates some level of choice by selectively collapsing wave-forms (not just randomly collapsing them) and is still compatible with a macro-deterministic universe.
- FeepingCreature 10y ago
  Yeah but there seems to be some kind of belief that quantum is somehow "less lawful" in a way that would rescue it from the conflict with determinism. Which simply doesn't work - either it's random, in which case it's not Will, or it's determined by something else, such as consciousness, in which case it's not any more Free than classical physics. (Personally, Compatibilism offers the only satisfactory way out.)

PeterisP 10y ago

The concept of "escaping determinism" or "rescuing free will" seems weird to me. For any of the very different definitions of free will there a bunch of arguments about whether they are true or not in our reality - but "I don't like the consequences" is not one of them. Free will is not something that needs to be saved. We can't save it, we can't change it, we can't create it if it's not there, we can't remove it from the universe if it's there. It exists (or not) in some particular way, and that's it. It would be interesting to find out definitely, but that wouldn't really change anything; and I don't believe if there's anything in our behaviour that should change upon finding it out.