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Note that having a compressed energy ready for rapid release is exactly equal to handling an explosive in your laptop :) There are a lot of experimental batter

Note that having a compressed energy ready for rapid release is exactly equal to handling an explosive in your laptop :) There are a lot of experimental batteries that have like 5x capacity of the current Li-ion ones, but melt and explode when heated or crushed, which makes them effectively useless. This is one of the hardest problems in high-capacity batteries - to avoid "rapid unscheduled heat dissipation" and the following "rapid unscheduled disassembly".

Razengan 10y ago
In that case, maybe what's actually needed is not battery capacity, but quicker and more convenient recharging systems? Say solar, kinetic, or wireless charging stations spread throughout a city? Maybe incorporate some kind of "witricity" into the next WiFi proposal? If stuff can be recharged while it's being used, or within seconds, it shouldn't matter how much capacity the battery has.
- throwwit 10y ago
  ..or an inherent groundstate failure mode?. I.e. the condition-based lowering of the activation energy of an endothermic crystalization. I don't know how feasible it would be though.
fuzzy2 10y ago
> but melt and explode when heated or crushed But that’s exactly what Li-ion batteries already do. x)
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  What you really want to avoid is destroying non-rechargeable lithium manganese batteries, like a CR123. There are some true horror stories out there, like this one: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?120888-ROAR-of-the-Pelican-(CR123-Explosion-during-use-firsthand-account) http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?120888-RO... TL;DR: guy used stock flashlight with two stock CR123 batteries in series. One discharged faster than the other, so it got reverse charged from the one holding more charge, and promptly vented hydrogen gas that got ignited and blew up. Guy got glass and metal shrapnel damage to his foot, and hydrogen fluoride poisoning resulting in permanent lung damage and other bad symptoms. It's really horrible. Bad stuff starts at page 5.
  - yread 10y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG_UuPmLO1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG_UuPmLO1c With nasty cough as a bonus
    - tcoppi 10y ago
      Wow, that was an incredibly unsafe thing to do. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they weren't at least doing it outside, much less under a vent hood or at least wearing good masks.
Fuxy 10y ago
Ok so that rules out phones, laptops and other devices that tend to get roughed up over time but I would still consider using it as energy storage for the solar panel on my house for instance. As you have it isolated from the house in a specially built enclosure or garden shed it's less likely to get damaged and even if it is the damage can be manageable. Then again in these cases it's more of a matter of how cheap it is vs the amount of energy it can hold and size doesn't matter a much.
- Pxtl 10y ago
  Well, outside my house at a safe distance. But yes, better batteries as a utility company thing don't need to be as safe since they can be outdoors behind a fence like a propane tank.
- learc83 10y ago
  For large stationary batteries the number of charge cycles you can get is a major factor.
- branchly2 10y ago
  Where weight and energy density is not a concern, you'd just use regular old-fashioned lead-acid. Lots of charge cycles, easily recycled, simple, no overheating, existing infrastructure.
  - kbenson 10y ago
    When the Powerwall was announced, weren't people explaining one of the benefits over lead-acid based systems as you don't have to worry about accidentally generating noxious or explosive gases if the system isn't well vented? I just found something regarding that[1], but I'm unqualified to know how much of a problem this is in reality. 1: http://goodforgas.com/hazardous-gases-associated-lead-acid-battery-charging-stations/ http://goodforgas.com/hazardous-gases-associated-lead-acid-b...
NickNameNick 10y ago
Also known as 'Engine rich exhaust'
Kenji 10y ago
Yeah, with the batteries becoming so powerful, I sometimes feel uneasy about having the equivalent of a hand grenade on my lap and the equivalent of a potent firework right by my ear as I make phone calls.
dghughes 10y ago
The videos of punctured lithium-ion batteries violently spewing smoke and flames is alarming. Then there is Li-Po which can ignite if charged too much or if left to drain to low. I also suspect they'll burn if you give them a stern look or make a hurtful comment.
- legooolas 10y ago
  Yet you can take those on a plane but not a >100ml bottle of water.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
AgentME 10y ago
> Note that having a compressed energy ready for rapid release is exactly equal to handling an explosive in your laptop :) Animals can store a lot of energy, but they don't tend to explode with that energy when damaged. Are there techniques that could be learned from cells that could be used to make safer electrical batteries?
- effie 10y ago
  Fat does have much higher density of energy than Li-ion cell and it does not explode, but nobody seems to have figured out how to burn fat in closed space so that no exhausts are produced (there is always at least CO_2).

Razengan 10y ago

In that case, maybe what's actually needed is not battery capacity, but quicker and more convenient recharging systems? Say solar, kinetic, or wireless charging stations spread throughout a city? Maybe incorporate some kind of "witricity" into the next WiFi proposal? If stuff can be recharged while it's being used, or within seconds, it shouldn't matter how much capacity the battery has.

throwwit 10y ago
..or an inherent groundstate failure mode?. I.e. the condition-based lowering of the activation energy of an endothermic crystalization. I don't know how feasible it would be though.

fuzzy2 10y ago

> but melt and explode when heated or crushed But that’s exactly what Li-ion batteries already do. x)

semi-extrinsic 10y ago
What you really want to avoid is destroying non-rechargeable lithium manganese batteries, like a CR123. There are some true horror stories out there, like this one: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?120888-ROAR-of-the-Pelican-(CR123-Explosion-during-use-firsthand-account) http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?120888-RO... TL;DR: guy used stock flashlight with two stock CR123 batteries in series. One discharged faster than the other, so it got reverse charged from the one holding more charge, and promptly vented hydrogen gas that got ignited and blew up. Guy got glass and metal shrapnel damage to his foot, and hydrogen fluoride poisoning resulting in permanent lung damage and other bad symptoms. It's really horrible. Bad stuff starts at page 5.
- yread 10y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG_UuPmLO1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG_UuPmLO1c With nasty cough as a bonus
  - tcoppi 10y ago
    Wow, that was an incredibly unsafe thing to do. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they weren't at least doing it outside, much less under a vent hood or at least wearing good masks.

Fuxy 10y ago

Ok so that rules out phones, laptops and other devices that tend to get roughed up over time but I would still consider using it as energy storage for the solar panel on my house for instance. As you have it isolated from the house in a specially built enclosure or garden shed it's less likely to get damaged and even if it is the damage can be manageable. Then again in these cases it's more of a matter of how cheap it is vs the amount of energy it can hold and size doesn't matter a much.

Pxtl 10y ago
Well, outside my house at a safe distance. But yes, better batteries as a utility company thing don't need to be as safe since they can be outdoors behind a fence like a propane tank.
learc83 10y ago
For large stationary batteries the number of charge cycles you can get is a major factor.
branchly2 10y ago
Where weight and energy density is not a concern, you'd just use regular old-fashioned lead-acid. Lots of charge cycles, easily recycled, simple, no overheating, existing infrastructure.
- kbenson 10y ago
  When the Powerwall was announced, weren't people explaining one of the benefits over lead-acid based systems as you don't have to worry about accidentally generating noxious or explosive gases if the system isn't well vented? I just found something regarding that[1], but I'm unqualified to know how much of a problem this is in reality. 1: http://goodforgas.com/hazardous-gases-associated-lead-acid-battery-charging-stations/ http://goodforgas.com/hazardous-gases-associated-lead-acid-b...

NickNameNick 10y ago

Also known as 'Engine rich exhaust'

Kenji 10y ago

Yeah, with the batteries becoming so powerful, I sometimes feel uneasy about having the equivalent of a hand grenade on my lap and the equivalent of a potent firework right by my ear as I make phone calls.

dghughes 10y ago

The videos of punctured lithium-ion batteries violently spewing smoke and flames is alarming. Then there is Li-Po which can ignite if charged too much or if left to drain to low. I also suspect they'll burn if you give them a stern look or make a hurtful comment.

legooolas 10y ago
Yet you can take those on a plane but not a >100ml bottle of water.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

AgentME 10y ago

> Note that having a compressed energy ready for rapid release is exactly equal to handling an explosive in your laptop :) Animals can store a lot of energy, but they don't tend to explode with that energy when damaged. Are there techniques that could be learned from cells that could be used to make safer electrical batteries?

effie 10y ago
Fat does have much higher density of energy than Li-ion cell and it does not explode, but nobody seems to have figured out how to burn fat in closed space so that no exhausts are produced (there is always at least CO_2).