6 ms·

Can't say for other cities, but Vancouver is quite liveable if you gathered your wealth elsewhere. The median household salary is 22nd Canada wide in 2010[1]. T

Can't say for other cities, but Vancouver is quite liveable if you gathered your wealth elsewhere. The median household salary is 22nd Canada wide in 2010[1]. The housing price is world renowned. I wonder if there's a list for world's most liveable cities for young people. Where technologies are rapidly being adopted by both the community and policy makers, knowledgeable government, less presence of established powers/influencers who prevent progress. And how hard to create such a city from scratch? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Median_household_income_of_cities_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Median_household_incom...

sandworm101 10y ago
Agreed. Vancouver is only "liveable" if you are extremely established. Wages are pathetic. Its a city full of investors and not much else. It isn't a place for anyone young who doesn't have a steady trust income. On the other hand, much of what makes Vancouver liveable has little to do with the city and more to do with the province and country. Get out of Vancouver, to Squamish, Chilliwack or even to Bowen and you can afford to work.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  Do you think Vancouver is getting some of the tech industry sprawl out of Northern Washington? I mean it's difficult to get work visas unless you have an essential skill, and companies don't want to hire people without interviewing them in person. With Washington so close, companies can interview highly skilled individuals without spending a fortune on airfare. Conversely, you're not going to get a lot of unskilled immigrants and you need to compete with the wages of your neighbour. It almost seems like the gentrification problem would be terrible.
- mattnewport 10y ago
  Vancouver is liveable if you're happy renting and a software engineer. Buying is unaffordable but if like me you have no desire to own property that's not a major problem. Wages in tech are low compared to the major US tech hubs. That can be an advantage if you contract for US companies as I've been doing recently tho.
  - chebum 10y ago
    Why are you ok with renting?
    - mattnewport 10y ago
      I wonder why people are ok with buying. For most people buying a house is a bad investment. Unless you're very wealthy a house is going to represent a big chunk of your net worth which means you're not going to have a diversified portfolio and you're going to be borrowing money to buy it. Few ordinary investors would contemplate making a highly leveraged investment in the stock market but seem to think it becomes a good idea with housing. Historically housing also tends to underperform the stock market when you take all costs into account (taxes, maintenance, strata fees, etc.). It's also a highly illiquid asset and tends to correlate with economic conditions (e.g. in an economic downturn you risk losing your job and facing a negative equity trap to move to find another one). Some people derive enjoyment from owning their own home and if that's the case then maybe the financial downsides still make sense for them. For me I'd rather not have any of the hassles involved with home ownership and let my landlord deal with them. Personally owning a house seems like an unappealing prospect and it would have to be not just a neutral financial decision but a heavily net positive one for me to consider it.
    - Zachery 10y ago
      In some cases in some cities in Canada, and where you are living you can rent and save and be ahead compared to buying in the current market. The savings can be used to fund investments which make you more money. In TO and the surrounding areas a fully detached houses start around 750k, and in the core can be way more expensive. Average home price is heading (or is over) 1m CAD. I can get a shoe box condo (1b/studio) in the "close" burbs for mid-high 200-300k. A real house, detached that is nice, about 1.5 hours away approaches 200-300k.
  - theseadroid 10y ago
    I've been lucky to have a nice landlord for a while until he sold the rental unit, then the new landlord started charging more for laundry/parking/anything the law allows. He also tried his best to increase rent. You must have heard that the ultra low vacancy situation leads to rent bidding wars and whatnot[1]. The renting market is current a seller market. Being a home owner you have to be in the market once. One good rational decision and you are set. Being a renter means being the buyer all the time. At least for me I dont want to spend the extra time to learn the skills to be an expert renter and try to outsmart the landlord year after year. [1] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-rental-market-bidding-war-1.3680027 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-ren...
- msie 10y ago
  Hmmm, lots of not-extremely-established people call Vancouver their home. I really wonder how many people here are basing their opinions just on trendy news pieces on Vancouver's housing. Pretty disappointing.
  - Yaziyumaru 10y ago
    Any major city still has low wage workers, but for Software Engineering many of the positions in Vancouver are not proportional to the cost of living. I grew up near Vancouver and am currently working in Germany because I was getting better offers among other reasons.
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    > lots of not-extremely-established people call Vancouver their home. No they don't. Nobody earning 20$/hour moves to vancouver. Those who do earn low wages have roots in the city. They started renting before the rise (and now live in fear of their landlord selling). Or they bought 20+ years ago and are now sitting on a pile of equity. Or they are living in a friend/parent's basement. Such people are established in the city. The low-pay stranger isn't welcome in Vancouver.
  - theseadroid 10y ago
    For sure. If they've been living here for some years. The housing crisis wasn't this bad until maybe last 5 years. But it has prevented not only young talents coming to the city, but also small-middle businesses flourishing. As the list is published yearly, shouldn't it reflect up-to-date situations? And Vancouver's renting market is going frenzy at the moment[1], is there a single option left for young people to live here with peace of mind? [1] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-rental-market-bidding-war-1.3680027 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-ren...
m_unloq 10y ago
Don't know a specific list, but you may want to take a look at Cluj-Napoca. A few guys from here put together a site, more or less as a BREXIT joke: http://www.transylvaniabeyond.com/welcome#move-to-transylvania http://www.transylvaniabeyond.com/welcome#move-to-transylvan.... A bit commercial, but not very far away from the truth. I've lived here for my entire life, but traveled a lot as well (Europe & US) and so far I haven't found another place I'd switch to.
chaostheory 10y ago
Once I saw Vancouver on the list, it made me question its validity. At least the Bay Area's prices are driven by actual jobs and not just foreign housing investments.
- msie 10y ago
  It goes to show how harmful the press can be in shaping the reputation of a city. Vancouver is a very popular destination for the rest of Canada and anyone who wants to move to Canada, not just foreign investors. It's more than foreign investment that's driving up prices. Also consider that high-tech companies in Vancouver are stingy wage-wise and think the city itself is a work benefit.
  - chaostheory 10y ago
    Is the press wrong that housing prices in Vacouver are exorbitant and mainly driven by foreign speculation?

sandworm101 10y ago

Agreed. Vancouver is only "liveable" if you are extremely established. Wages are pathetic. Its a city full of investors and not much else. It isn't a place for anyone young who doesn't have a steady trust income. On the other hand, much of what makes Vancouver liveable has little to do with the city and more to do with the province and country. Get out of Vancouver, to Squamish, Chilliwack or even to Bowen and you can afford to work.

djsumdog 10y ago
Do you think Vancouver is getting some of the tech industry sprawl out of Northern Washington? I mean it's difficult to get work visas unless you have an essential skill, and companies don't want to hire people without interviewing them in person. With Washington so close, companies can interview highly skilled individuals without spending a fortune on airfare. Conversely, you're not going to get a lot of unskilled immigrants and you need to compete with the wages of your neighbour. It almost seems like the gentrification problem would be terrible.
mattnewport 10y ago
Vancouver is liveable if you're happy renting and a software engineer. Buying is unaffordable but if like me you have no desire to own property that's not a major problem. Wages in tech are low compared to the major US tech hubs. That can be an advantage if you contract for US companies as I've been doing recently tho.
- chebum 10y ago
  Why are you ok with renting?
  - mattnewport 10y ago
    I wonder why people are ok with buying. For most people buying a house is a bad investment. Unless you're very wealthy a house is going to represent a big chunk of your net worth which means you're not going to have a diversified portfolio and you're going to be borrowing money to buy it. Few ordinary investors would contemplate making a highly leveraged investment in the stock market but seem to think it becomes a good idea with housing. Historically housing also tends to underperform the stock market when you take all costs into account (taxes, maintenance, strata fees, etc.). It's also a highly illiquid asset and tends to correlate with economic conditions (e.g. in an economic downturn you risk losing your job and facing a negative equity trap to move to find another one). Some people derive enjoyment from owning their own home and if that's the case then maybe the financial downsides still make sense for them. For me I'd rather not have any of the hassles involved with home ownership and let my landlord deal with them. Personally owning a house seems like an unappealing prospect and it would have to be not just a neutral financial decision but a heavily net positive one for me to consider it.
  - Zachery 10y ago
    In some cases in some cities in Canada, and where you are living you can rent and save and be ahead compared to buying in the current market. The savings can be used to fund investments which make you more money. In TO and the surrounding areas a fully detached houses start around 750k, and in the core can be way more expensive. Average home price is heading (or is over) 1m CAD. I can get a shoe box condo (1b/studio) in the "close" burbs for mid-high 200-300k. A real house, detached that is nice, about 1.5 hours away approaches 200-300k.
- theseadroid 10y ago
  I've been lucky to have a nice landlord for a while until he sold the rental unit, then the new landlord started charging more for laundry/parking/anything the law allows. He also tried his best to increase rent. You must have heard that the ultra low vacancy situation leads to rent bidding wars and whatnot[1]. The renting market is current a seller market. Being a home owner you have to be in the market once. One good rational decision and you are set. Being a renter means being the buyer all the time. At least for me I dont want to spend the extra time to learn the skills to be an expert renter and try to outsmart the landlord year after year. [1] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-rental-market-bidding-war-1.3680027 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-ren...
msie 10y ago
Hmmm, lots of not-extremely-established people call Vancouver their home. I really wonder how many people here are basing their opinions just on trendy news pieces on Vancouver's housing. Pretty disappointing.
- Yaziyumaru 10y ago
  Any major city still has low wage workers, but for Software Engineering many of the positions in Vancouver are not proportional to the cost of living. I grew up near Vancouver and am currently working in Germany because I was getting better offers among other reasons.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  > lots of not-extremely-established people call Vancouver their home. No they don't. Nobody earning 20$/hour moves to vancouver. Those who do earn low wages have roots in the city. They started renting before the rise (and now live in fear of their landlord selling). Or they bought 20+ years ago and are now sitting on a pile of equity. Or they are living in a friend/parent's basement. Such people are established in the city. The low-pay stranger isn't welcome in Vancouver.
- theseadroid 10y ago
  For sure. If they've been living here for some years. The housing crisis wasn't this bad until maybe last 5 years. But it has prevented not only young talents coming to the city, but also small-middle businesses flourishing. As the list is published yearly, shouldn't it reflect up-to-date situations? And Vancouver's renting market is going frenzy at the moment[1], is there a single option left for young people to live here with peace of mind? [1] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-rental-market-bidding-war-1.3680027 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-ren...

m_unloq 10y ago

Don't know a specific list, but you may want to take a look at Cluj-Napoca. A few guys from here put together a site, more or less as a BREXIT joke: http://www.transylvaniabeyond.com/welcome#move-to-transylvania http://www.transylvaniabeyond.com/welcome#move-to-transylvan.... A bit commercial, but not very far away from the truth. I've lived here for my entire life, but traveled a lot as well (Europe & US) and so far I haven't found another place I'd switch to.

chaostheory 10y ago

Once I saw Vancouver on the list, it made me question its validity. At least the Bay Area's prices are driven by actual jobs and not just foreign housing investments.

msie 10y ago
It goes to show how harmful the press can be in shaping the reputation of a city. Vancouver is a very popular destination for the rest of Canada and anyone who wants to move to Canada, not just foreign investors. It's more than foreign investment that's driving up prices. Also consider that high-tech companies in Vancouver are stingy wage-wise and think the city itself is a work benefit.
- chaostheory 10y ago
  Is the press wrong that housing prices in Vacouver are exorbitant and mainly driven by foreign speculation?