4 ms·

I'm not entirely convinced that "plain text" is "simple." For one, utf-8 is a variable-length encoding, which can cause all sorts of subtle bugs and sometimes l

I'm not entirely convinced that "plain text" is "simple." For one, utf-8 is a variable-length encoding, which can cause all sorts of subtle bugs and sometimes leads to security issues because somebody failed to parse a character correctly somewhere. On top of this, using plain text means that every program has to choose its own control characters, essentially an encoding within an encoding. This is great for readability, but it's not always easy to know how a certain program will treat certain corner cases, or even really just at all. I'm not sure what you mean by "you can just look at the text," because unlike something that encapsulates functionality alongside the data, text input into a program might do anything.

userbinator 10y ago
For one, utf-8 is a variable-length encoding, which can cause all sorts of subtle bugs and sometimes leads to security issues because somebody failed to parse a character correctly somewhere. UTF-8 is nice in that extended characters, despite consisting of multiple bytes, will never contain a low-ASCII character amongst them. Unless you're dealing with byte offsets, splitting and scanning UTF-8 strings by delimiters works just like ASCII. because unlike something that encapsulates functionality alongside the data, text input into a program might do anything. On the other hand, that "encapsulated functionality" is even more hidden and non-obvious. Unlike a stream of bytes that you can easily inspect simply by dumping them into a file, PowerShell objects are far more opaque entities.
- Pyxl101 10y ago
  Is there no trivial way to print a PowerShell object? As JSON or XML or an ascii table formatted into columns? That seems like a point of friction, then, I'd agree.
  - DHowett 10y ago
    By default, an object at the end of a pipeline will be printed to the screen in tabular format. (australis) ~\Desktop % Get-ItemProperty e Directory: C:\Users\Dustin\Desktop Mode LastWriteTime Length Name ---- ------------- ------ ---- d----- 8/12/2016 9:06 AM e I believe types can specify which columns to display by default; if you want more info, there's always `Format-List`: (australis) ~\Desktop % Get-ItemProperty e | format-list Directory: C:\Users\Dustin\Desktop Name : e CreationTime : 8/11/2016 10:58:56 PM LastWriteTime : 8/12/2016 9:06:13 AM LastAccessTime : 8/12/2016 9:06:13 AM Mode : d----- LinkType : Target : {} It's also possible to format any object via `ConvertTo-JSON`: (australis) ~\Desktop % Get-ItemProperty e | ConvertTo-JSON { "Name": "e", "Parent": { "Name": "Desktop", "Parent": { "Name": "Dustin", "Parent": "Users", "Exists": true, "Root": "C:\\", "FullName": "C:\\Users\\Dustin", "Extension": "", ...
    - useerup 10y ago
      > I believe types can specify which columns to display by default; Indeed, the default view (table/list/custom) can be specified, and for the view the default properties can be specified. Consider how 'ls' produces a sequence of FileSystemInfo objects (when run against a disk file system). The view specifies that the list be grouped by "parent". On the terminal this gives a nice list a la: Directory: C:\Dell\Drivers\T7MFF\PhysX\files\Engine\v2.8.0 Mode LastWriteTime Length Name ---- ------------- ------ ---- -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 362232 NxCooking.dll -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 5520120 PhysXCore.dll Directory: C:\Dell\Drivers\T7MFF\PhysX\files\Engine\v2.8.1 Mode LastWriteTime Length Name ---- ------------- ------ ---- -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 363256 NxCooking.dll -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 5823736 PhysXCore.dll Directory: C:\Dell\Drivers\T7MFF\PhysX\files\Engine\v2.8.3 Mode LastWriteTime Length Name ---- ------------- ------ ---- -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 339192 PhysXCooking.dll -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 412408 PhysXCooking64.dll -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 5952248 PhysXCore64.dll However, the underlying stream is still just a continous stream of FileSystemInfo's. It is the terminal display format definition that causes it formatting to break and write a directory heading whenever the next item has a different parent from the previous one.
  - userbinator 10y ago
    You can certainly print them, but there's no guarantee you'll get all its contents by default, and there's still the problem of how to create those objects from some other output, e.g. in a file. http://windowsitpro.com/powershell/powershell-objects-and-output http://windowsitpro.com/powershell/powershell-objects-and-ou... It could be said that, in some ways, unstructured streams are far more WYSIWYG, which can conceptually mean easier understanding and use.
    - nightski 10y ago
      Or it can mean a lot harder to understand and use. With types you get all of the metadata that you might not even have if it was plain text. In addition, every application chooses it's own serialization format. In the end, the only programs that compose well are those that work on text, not structured data (i.e. grep, awk, sed, etc...)
    - useerup 10y ago
      > You can certainly print them, but there's no guarantee you'll get all its contents by default, and there's still the problem of how to create those objects from some other output, e.g. in a file. That's what CliXML is for. Export-CliXml writes objects to a file. Import-CliXml reads them back.
      - 0x6c6f6c 10y ago
        I think they're assuming the default view output is being used for Export-CliXML, when really it's serializing the object passed to it.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    You can print them, but you can't serialise them in a way that can be later unserialised.
    - useerup 10y ago
      > You can print them, but you can't serialise them in a way that can be later unserialised. Nope, that's wrong: Export-CliXml Import-CliXml (https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh849916.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh849916.aspx) For instance: PS> ps|Export-Clixml myprocesses.xml PS> Import-Clixml .\myprocesses.xml Handles NPM(K) PM(K) WS(K) CPU(s) Id SI ProcessName ------- ------ ----- ----- ------ -- -- ----------- 297 15 3856 13304 4024 0 aeagent 88 7 1420 4808 3804 ... CliXml (Command Line XML, IIRC) is a serialization format for PowerShell objects. It is the format used to transfer objects to/from remote machines when PS remoting is used. Granted, the re-hydrated objects are not the original objects. Most method will not work after re-hydration as the object has been ripped from it's context. Think ProcessInfo (the objects returned from 'ps' (Get-Process)) - in it's original form it can be used to interact with the process, e.g. terminating it. In the rehydrated form it can be used only to inspect properties. Speaking from experience, this is rarely a problem. CliXML works remarkably well.

userbinator 10y ago

For one, utf-8 is a variable-length encoding, which can cause all sorts of subtle bugs and sometimes leads to security issues because somebody failed to parse a character correctly somewhere. UTF-8 is nice in that extended characters, despite consisting of multiple bytes, will never contain a low-ASCII character amongst them. Unless you're dealing with byte offsets, splitting and scanning UTF-8 strings by delimiters works just like ASCII. because unlike something that encapsulates functionality alongside the data, text input into a program might do anything. On the other hand, that "encapsulated functionality" is even more hidden and non-obvious. Unlike a stream of bytes that you can easily inspect simply by dumping them into a file, PowerShell objects are far more opaque entities.

Pyxl101 10y ago
Is there no trivial way to print a PowerShell object? As JSON or XML or an ascii table formatted into columns? That seems like a point of friction, then, I'd agree.
- DHowett 10y ago
  By default, an object at the end of a pipeline will be printed to the screen in tabular format. (australis) ~\Desktop % Get-ItemProperty e Directory: C:\Users\Dustin\Desktop Mode LastWriteTime Length Name ---- ------------- ------ ---- d----- 8/12/2016 9:06 AM e I believe types can specify which columns to display by default; if you want more info, there's always `Format-List`: (australis) ~\Desktop % Get-ItemProperty e | format-list Directory: C:\Users\Dustin\Desktop Name : e CreationTime : 8/11/2016 10:58:56 PM LastWriteTime : 8/12/2016 9:06:13 AM LastAccessTime : 8/12/2016 9:06:13 AM Mode : d----- LinkType : Target : {} It's also possible to format any object via `ConvertTo-JSON`: (australis) ~\Desktop % Get-ItemProperty e | ConvertTo-JSON { "Name": "e", "Parent": { "Name": "Desktop", "Parent": { "Name": "Dustin", "Parent": "Users", "Exists": true, "Root": "C:\\", "FullName": "C:\\Users\\Dustin", "Extension": "", ...
  - useerup 10y ago
    > I believe types can specify which columns to display by default; Indeed, the default view (table/list/custom) can be specified, and for the view the default properties can be specified. Consider how 'ls' produces a sequence of FileSystemInfo objects (when run against a disk file system). The view specifies that the list be grouped by "parent". On the terminal this gives a nice list a la: Directory: C:\Dell\Drivers\T7MFF\PhysX\files\Engine\v2.8.0 Mode LastWriteTime Length Name ---- ------------- ------ ---- -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 362232 NxCooking.dll -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 5520120 PhysXCore.dll Directory: C:\Dell\Drivers\T7MFF\PhysX\files\Engine\v2.8.1 Mode LastWriteTime Length Name ---- ------------- ------ ---- -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 363256 NxCooking.dll -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 5823736 PhysXCore.dll Directory: C:\Dell\Drivers\T7MFF\PhysX\files\Engine\v2.8.3 Mode LastWriteTime Length Name ---- ------------- ------ ---- -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 339192 PhysXCooking.dll -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 412408 PhysXCooking64.dll -a---- 12-12-2014 07:42 5952248 PhysXCore64.dll However, the underlying stream is still just a continous stream of FileSystemInfo's. It is the terminal display format definition that causes it formatting to break and write a directory heading whenever the next item has a different parent from the previous one.
- userbinator 10y ago
  You can certainly print them, but there's no guarantee you'll get all its contents by default, and there's still the problem of how to create those objects from some other output, e.g. in a file. http://windowsitpro.com/powershell/powershell-objects-and-output http://windowsitpro.com/powershell/powershell-objects-and-ou... It could be said that, in some ways, unstructured streams are far more WYSIWYG, which can conceptually mean easier understanding and use.
  - nightski 10y ago
    Or it can mean a lot harder to understand and use. With types you get all of the metadata that you might not even have if it was plain text. In addition, every application chooses it's own serialization format. In the end, the only programs that compose well are those that work on text, not structured data (i.e. grep, awk, sed, etc...)
  - useerup 10y ago
    > You can certainly print them, but there's no guarantee you'll get all its contents by default, and there's still the problem of how to create those objects from some other output, e.g. in a file. That's what CliXML is for. Export-CliXml writes objects to a file. Import-CliXml reads them back.
    - 0x6c6f6c 10y ago
      I think they're assuming the default view output is being used for Export-CliXML, when really it's serializing the object passed to it.
- pjc50 10y ago
  You can print them, but you can't serialise them in a way that can be later unserialised.
  - useerup 10y ago
    > You can print them, but you can't serialise them in a way that can be later unserialised. Nope, that's wrong: Export-CliXml Import-CliXml (https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh849916.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh849916.aspx) For instance: PS> ps|Export-Clixml myprocesses.xml PS> Import-Clixml .\myprocesses.xml Handles NPM(K) PM(K) WS(K) CPU(s) Id SI ProcessName ------- ------ ----- ----- ------ -- -- ----------- 297 15 3856 13304 4024 0 aeagent 88 7 1420 4808 3804 ... CliXml (Command Line XML, IIRC) is a serialization format for PowerShell objects. It is the format used to transfer objects to/from remote machines when PS remoting is used. Granted, the re-hydrated objects are not the original objects. Most method will not work after re-hydration as the object has been ripped from it's context. Think ProcessInfo (the objects returned from 'ps' (Get-Process)) - in it's original form it can be used to interact with the process, e.g. terminating it. In the rehydrated form it can be used only to inspect properties. Speaking from experience, this is rarely a problem. CliXML works remarkably well.