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I don't think all life is a game in this way; with a game we hold ourselves to the rules for their own sake - the pleasure we get from play is that of acting wi

I don't think all life is a game in this way; with a game we hold ourselves to the rules for their own sake - the pleasure we get from play is that of acting within the sandbox we've defined. It is a sketch of life, a model, a way to explore an idea. In the context of a game we might be adversaries, but I am intimately aware of the boundary, and that we are at play - our adversarial relationship is not "real". We often say, "It's just a game", and the just is crucial to the difference. This is different from social mores, which are boundaries we respect because transgression has consequences we care about. There are real ends; it's NOT just a game. There is no space or context beyond what happens in life, as there is in a game (taking place within the shell of the true life). The purpose of play, and playing games, is to prepare us for the actual contests with outcomes that we are invested in. Of course we might USE play, and games, as tools in the course of achieving real ends (like the Olympics as a goal for furthering peace), but this is different from those ends (peace) being a game in themselves.

munificent 10y ago
> This is different from social mores, which are boundaries we respect because transgression has consequences we care about. There are real ends; it's NOT just a game. This just means the games can nest. In the innermost game, you treat social mores as rules to follow and try to excel within them. But there is a surrounding meta-game where you weigh the pros and cons of transgressing the mores and consequences that leads to. In that game, the mores are no longer rules and transgressing is now a move. Around that, yet another game where the moves are putting effort into changing social rules. And so on.
- astazangasta 10y ago
  Except they don't nest. There is no boundary between the social mores 'game' and the transgression 'game', no point where the consequences are contained and the outcome doesn't matter. You're declaring them to be a 'game' because i am evaluating outcomes, but they aren't the same - the results continue to matter to my life.
  - JoshuaDavid 10y ago
    Winning a large chess tournament with a significant cash prize would also matter to the rest of your life, but that doesn't mean that chess is not a game.
    - astazangasta 10y ago
      No, it means 'winning a large amount of money' is not a game. The chess doesn't matter in this scenario.
- GarvielLoken 10y ago
  Why would you do that? It sounds very schizophrenic to me to make one self have such a distance to normal social and emotional life that one represent it to one self as a game. To treat a social overstep as a rule break instead of understanding emphatically that you have caused hurt i would consider schizophrenic / autism. I think it is much more healthy, in a mental health way, to not re-present life and instead experience it directly.
  - munificent 10y ago
    For what it's worth, I'm not arguing that one should look at their life entirely this dispassionately. Just that their are multiple levels that we operate in where we deal with rules and consequences. I don't mean "game" in the sense of "doesn't matter what happens". I mean it in the sense of "players interacting within a rule set". Note that empathy and the feelings of others are hugely important parts of all of the games we play in life. An anecdote: my youngest daughter is one of the sweetest most naturally empathic people I know. She was playing Candyland with her older sister and won twice in a row. This got her sister mad because she wants nothing more to win. But my youngest daughter wasn't trying to win—Candyland is a pure chance game—and what she really wanted was for everyone to have fun. So she told her sister to play again and that she promised to let her win this time. She was trying to play the metagame of maximizing everyone's fun.

munificent 10y ago

> This is different from social mores, which are boundaries we respect because transgression has consequences we care about. There are real ends; it's NOT just a game. This just means the games can nest. In the innermost game, you treat social mores as rules to follow and try to excel within them. But there is a surrounding meta-game where you weigh the pros and cons of transgressing the mores and consequences that leads to. In that game, the mores are no longer rules and transgressing is now a move. Around that, yet another game where the moves are putting effort into changing social rules. And so on.

astazangasta 10y ago
Except they don't nest. There is no boundary between the social mores 'game' and the transgression 'game', no point where the consequences are contained and the outcome doesn't matter. You're declaring them to be a 'game' because i am evaluating outcomes, but they aren't the same - the results continue to matter to my life.
- JoshuaDavid 10y ago
  Winning a large chess tournament with a significant cash prize would also matter to the rest of your life, but that doesn't mean that chess is not a game.
  - astazangasta 10y ago
    No, it means 'winning a large amount of money' is not a game. The chess doesn't matter in this scenario.
GarvielLoken 10y ago
Why would you do that? It sounds very schizophrenic to me to make one self have such a distance to normal social and emotional life that one represent it to one self as a game. To treat a social overstep as a rule break instead of understanding emphatically that you have caused hurt i would consider schizophrenic / autism. I think it is much more healthy, in a mental health way, to not re-present life and instead experience it directly.
- munificent 10y ago
  For what it's worth, I'm not arguing that one should look at their life entirely this dispassionately. Just that their are multiple levels that we operate in where we deal with rules and consequences. I don't mean "game" in the sense of "doesn't matter what happens". I mean it in the sense of "players interacting within a rule set". Note that empathy and the feelings of others are hugely important parts of all of the games we play in life. An anecdote: my youngest daughter is one of the sweetest most naturally empathic people I know. She was playing Candyland with her older sister and won twice in a row. This got her sister mad because she wants nothing more to win. But my youngest daughter wasn't trying to win—Candyland is a pure chance game—and what she really wanted was for everyone to have fun. So she told her sister to play again and that she promised to let her win this time. She was trying to play the metagame of maximizing everyone's fun.