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These "buses" are actually about the size of a minivan (9 persons fit in), they travel on a route with not much frequent traffic at a maximum 11 km/h, and there

These "buses" are actually about the size of a minivan (9 persons fit in), they travel on a route with not much frequent traffic at a maximum 11 km/h, and there is always an attendant monitoring them, although he/she shouldn't need to drive. They were trialed at a housing fair last year; there they traveled in a closed area not open to other vehicles. Finnish law does not state anywhere that a vehicle must have a driver, so this trial is legally not that challenging. It might turn out to be challenging technically; the local metro was supposed to be driverless now (like Docklands Light Railway was almost 30 years ago) but that has been postponed indefinitely, and is a partial reason for a delay in the extension of the metro line to the west which even has its own "is it already ready" page akin to BER airport [3] and which messed up e.g. my public transport connections. The following links [1], [2] are in Finnish but there you have some more pictures of the things. [1] https://forumvirium.fi/itseohjautuvat-robottibussit-helsingin-kaduille-sohjoa-hankkeessa/ https://forumvirium.fi/itseohjautuvat-robottibussit-helsingi... [2] http://yle.fi/uutiset/tassa_ne_tulevat_suomen_ensimmaiset_robottibussit_kurvasivat_helsingin_liikenteeseen/9099002 http://yle.fi/uutiset/tassa_ne_tulevat_suomen_ensimmaiset_ro... [3] http://www.onkolansimetrovalmis.com/ http://www.onkolansimetrovalmis.com/

repomies691 10y ago
I tried the bus on the housing fair last year, it was the most anticlimatic experience I've had. The whole trip was basically just a straight line on asphalt, and it was ridiculously slow.
radarsat1 10y ago
> there is always an attendant monitoring them I actually highly question the efficacy of this approach. Humans are good at driving (for some values of "good") partly (imho) because it is an active task. As soon as we enter the "monitoring" zone, and not actively engaging in the task, it is very easy to become quickly bored and have attentions wander and miss important details, like getting too close to other traffic, veering the wrong way, etc. This is not the fault of the person doing the monitoring being bad at their job, but rather simply how humans work, and this needs to be taken into account when designing systems that are automatic but "require human monitoring." Really, humans are better at the active task, and computers are better at monitoring, but we are constantly trying to reverse these roles, sometimes to dangerous effect.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Quite true. I believe a part of the job is just to advice passengers, but anyway as the "bus" rides only at a very low speed over a short journey (500 m back and forth) it wouldn't matter that much even if the attendant fell asleep. And a part of it is surely just to convince the potential passengers (who don't have to pay anything in this trial) that "it's safe, we even put our own guinea pig to prove it".
- sandworm101 10y ago
  Forgetting that this is a bus, it is still a confined space containing members of the public. You need an attendant of some sort to deal with unusual situations (ie fires). Even the most advanced and sensor-filled Disney ride still requires a human being to monitor the behaviour of the other human beings.
  - radarsat1 10y ago
    That is true. I've used the computer controlled metros in Paris often enough and there don't seem to be too many problems but I suppose there are guards around. As for buses, I find there are two cultures, either the bus driver has some amount of responsibility for what happens on board his vehicle, answering commuter questions, announcing stops, checking tickets etc., or he completely dissociates, and just drives, sometimes not even being the one to check your ticket. In the latter case you tend to have a lot more theft no buses. (In my limited experience. I'd love to see data on that, actually.. although the distinction is perhaps a bit hard to define.)
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      There's always the concern about calamitous fellow passengers. This story concentrates on women suffering from perverts, but I expect that most life-threatening violence is, as usual, experienced by men. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/will-the-night-tube-protect-women-against-public-transport-perve/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/will-the-night-tube-pr...
  - ptaipale 10y ago
Jommi 10y ago
Come help improve these "buses" at Junction [1] hackathon :) [1]http://hackjunction.com/ http://hackjunction.com/
gbl08ma 10y ago
I have read that in my country, one of the reasons why metro systems (and perhaps bus too), which for now are state-owned, are not more automated/driverless, is workers' union pressure for it not to happen. In fact one line was fully automated (but still had conductors just to open and close doors) but the system was scrapped some years ago; the official reason was that the system was obsolete, but many people think that additionally, there was some lobbying for automation to be removed instead of modernized (which would have been more economical in the longer term). What I mean is that there are more than technical and legal challenges to self-driving transportation systems, especially when those systems currently employ human drivers who are obviously not willing to lose their jobs.
- deegles 10y ago
  There was a similar story at one of the shipping ports in LA I believe. The port wanted to install a multi-billion dollar, mostly automated container moving system, but the workers union managed to negotiate only a partial roll out and guarantees that they would remain employed (which I guess defeats the purpose of installing automated systems).
- maverick_iceman 10y ago
  Which city and country?
paulsutter 10y ago
Elon explains why self-driving buses should be smaller (from his "Master Plan Part Deux"[1]): > With the advent of autonomy, it will probably make sense to shrink the size of buses and transition the role of bus driver to that of fleet manager. Traffic congestion would improve due to increased passenger areal density by eliminating the center aisle and putting seats where there are currently entryways, and matching acceleration and braking to other vehicles, thus avoiding the inertial impedance to smooth traffic flow of traditional heavy buses. It would also take people all the way to their destination. Fixed summon buttons at existing bus stops would serve those who don't have a phone. Design accommodates wheelchairs, strollers and bikes. Skepticism is understandable, but self driving technology is advancing rapidly. Tesla will release a bus-like product: > In addition to consumer vehicles, there are two other types of electric vehicle needed: heavy-duty trucks and high passenger-density urban transport. Both are in the early stages of development at Tesla and should be ready for unveiling next year. [1] https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-deux https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-deux
deanclatworthy 10y ago
Nice to see another local pointing out the facts. The traffic at Hernesaari is basically non-existant, other than a few commuters in the morning and the #14 bus shipping tourists and hipsters down to Lolyly and Hernesaarenranta. It's actually quite a good place to try it out. Lauttasaari would have been another good candidate. I am one of the people who have also had their commute messed up by the bus changes due to the metro delay but once it arrives there will be one bus service that just drives in a circle taking people to the metro station. A pretty good option for an automated bus I think, and a short route.

repomies691 10y ago

I tried the bus on the housing fair last year, it was the most anticlimatic experience I've had. The whole trip was basically just a straight line on asphalt, and it was ridiculously slow.

radarsat1 10y ago

> there is always an attendant monitoring them I actually highly question the efficacy of this approach. Humans are good at driving (for some values of "good") partly (imho) because it is an active task. As soon as we enter the "monitoring" zone, and not actively engaging in the task, it is very easy to become quickly bored and have attentions wander and miss important details, like getting too close to other traffic, veering the wrong way, etc. This is not the fault of the person doing the monitoring being bad at their job, but rather simply how humans work, and this needs to be taken into account when designing systems that are automatic but "require human monitoring." Really, humans are better at the active task, and computers are better at monitoring, but we are constantly trying to reverse these roles, sometimes to dangerous effect.

ptaipale 10y ago
Quite true. I believe a part of the job is just to advice passengers, but anyway as the "bus" rides only at a very low speed over a short journey (500 m back and forth) it wouldn't matter that much even if the attendant fell asleep. And a part of it is surely just to convince the potential passengers (who don't have to pay anything in this trial) that "it's safe, we even put our own guinea pig to prove it".
sandworm101 10y ago
Forgetting that this is a bus, it is still a confined space containing members of the public. You need an attendant of some sort to deal with unusual situations (ie fires). Even the most advanced and sensor-filled Disney ride still requires a human being to monitor the behaviour of the other human beings.
- radarsat1 10y ago
  That is true. I've used the computer controlled metros in Paris often enough and there don't seem to be too many problems but I suppose there are guards around. As for buses, I find there are two cultures, either the bus driver has some amount of responsibility for what happens on board his vehicle, answering commuter questions, announcing stops, checking tickets etc., or he completely dissociates, and just drives, sometimes not even being the one to check your ticket. In the latter case you tend to have a lot more theft no buses. (In my limited experience. I'd love to see data on that, actually.. although the distinction is perhaps a bit hard to define.)
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    There's always the concern about calamitous fellow passengers. This story concentrates on women suffering from perverts, but I expect that most life-threatening violence is, as usual, experienced by men. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/will-the-night-tube-protect-women-against-public-transport-perve/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/will-the-night-tube-pr...
- ptaipale 10y ago

Jommi 10y ago

Come help improve these "buses" at Junction [1] hackathon :) [1]http://hackjunction.com/ http://hackjunction.com/

gbl08ma 10y ago

I have read that in my country, one of the reasons why metro systems (and perhaps bus too), which for now are state-owned, are not more automated/driverless, is workers' union pressure for it not to happen. In fact one line was fully automated (but still had conductors just to open and close doors) but the system was scrapped some years ago; the official reason was that the system was obsolete, but many people think that additionally, there was some lobbying for automation to be removed instead of modernized (which would have been more economical in the longer term). What I mean is that there are more than technical and legal challenges to self-driving transportation systems, especially when those systems currently employ human drivers who are obviously not willing to lose their jobs.

deegles 10y ago
There was a similar story at one of the shipping ports in LA I believe. The port wanted to install a multi-billion dollar, mostly automated container moving system, but the workers union managed to negotiate only a partial roll out and guarantees that they would remain employed (which I guess defeats the purpose of installing automated systems).
maverick_iceman 10y ago
Which city and country?

paulsutter 10y ago

Elon explains why self-driving buses should be smaller (from his "Master Plan Part Deux"[1]): > With the advent of autonomy, it will probably make sense to shrink the size of buses and transition the role of bus driver to that of fleet manager. Traffic congestion would improve due to increased passenger areal density by eliminating the center aisle and putting seats where there are currently entryways, and matching acceleration and braking to other vehicles, thus avoiding the inertial impedance to smooth traffic flow of traditional heavy buses. It would also take people all the way to their destination. Fixed summon buttons at existing bus stops would serve those who don't have a phone. Design accommodates wheelchairs, strollers and bikes. Skepticism is understandable, but self driving technology is advancing rapidly. Tesla will release a bus-like product: > In addition to consumer vehicles, there are two other types of electric vehicle needed: heavy-duty trucks and high passenger-density urban transport. Both are in the early stages of development at Tesla and should be ready for unveiling next year. [1] https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-deux https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-deux

deanclatworthy 10y ago

Nice to see another local pointing out the facts. The traffic at Hernesaari is basically non-existant, other than a few commuters in the morning and the #14 bus shipping tourists and hipsters down to Lolyly and Hernesaarenranta. It's actually quite a good place to try it out. Lauttasaari would have been another good candidate. I am one of the people who have also had their commute messed up by the bus changes due to the metro delay but once it arrives there will be one bus service that just drives in a circle taking people to the metro station. A pretty good option for an automated bus I think, and a short route.