4 ms·

The problem is that, unlike exams and stuff, where lots of effort went into studying how long each question should take a 'typical' person, in actual work, the

The problem is that, unlike exams and stuff, where lots of effort went into studying how long each question should take a 'typical' person, in actual work, the problem hasn't actually been solved before, at least not by the current team, and no-one really knows how long it would take. There's no obvious theoretical objective way of measuring. So, you can waste two thirds of your time on estimating and negotiating times and pays for little micro-projects (which is doable, though at a huge overhead), or simply work normal hours, and check that everyone is approximately working to the best of their ability. This latter method is by far the easier method, for everyone. I have worked remotely quite a lot, using both methods, and the second method is far more sustainable, in my opinion. (I mean, you just sync your hours with your workmates, and just make sure you're always online in the online chat application; if the company doesnt chat in your absence on online chat, well, it might not be the right company for you; but many do. A lot).

cmdrfred 10y ago
I wonder why time spent is a concern at all. Lets say you hire me to build you a dashboard for your company. You tell me what data you want where and ask me how long I think it would take. I give you that number and you do wage * time to get at the cost of that stage of the project. From time to time we video chat and I demonstrate what I have thus far. If you feel my work is unacceptable you terminate our relationship. Where does hours worked come into play? In the modern workplace I often feel punished for efficiency and relegated to sitting at a desk twiddling my thumbs for that crime.
- charlesdm 10y ago
  Become a consultant, and you'll be rewarded for results instead of time spent.
  - Shaanie 10y ago
    That's not necessarily true, though. Consultants often work hourly on contracts, which means that you're typically punished for being efficient as you won't have as many billable hours. This generally means that you're better off being less efficient while still meeting the deadlines/goals. Of course, there's a tradeoff since proving yourself to be more efficient than expected could result in more work etc, but it's not as clear cut as being rewarded for efficiency.
- stinkytaco 10y ago
  But you've created a pretty simple project and outcome here where the outcome is measurable and clear. I say build a widget, you build a widget. You're basically a factory worker. (As an aside here, if you've ever worked with a consultant or freelancer, you know that objectives that seem simple and clear to both sides end up not being so clear when the product is delivered and then disagreements ensure). What if, however, I'm an engineer that's working on a new piece of machinery? This is a project that requires the involvement of many highly skilled workers, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, computer programmers, etc. I might be responsible for a single system or even component, but my work directly relies on several other's work, and it may change depending on the circumstances (say the mechanical engineer has designed an arm that would damage a critical electrical system). Now you've got a moving target. One day your work was x, now the circumstances shifted and it's y. With potentially hundreds of people involved it would be very difficult to asses what any one person's contribution was based on your standard above. Indeed, if you could asses that from the beginning, you wouldn't need all those engineers to design your machine since you had already done that work.
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    I see how that can be a problem in that context, NASA might never be a candidate for much remote work beacuse they are working on some of humanity's most complex projects for example. I just dont think a lot of work is that complex. Accounting, sales, insurance adjusters, data entry and many other office tasks are easy to quantify. My point is at the end of the day both parties need to be happy enough to continue the relationship tomorrow, I simply dont think i'd care how many hours you put in only if you generate more value then you consume.

cmdrfred 10y ago

I wonder why time spent is a concern at all. Lets say you hire me to build you a dashboard for your company. You tell me what data you want where and ask me how long I think it would take. I give you that number and you do wage * time to get at the cost of that stage of the project. From time to time we video chat and I demonstrate what I have thus far. If you feel my work is unacceptable you terminate our relationship. Where does hours worked come into play? In the modern workplace I often feel punished for efficiency and relegated to sitting at a desk twiddling my thumbs for that crime.

charlesdm 10y ago
Become a consultant, and you'll be rewarded for results instead of time spent.
- Shaanie 10y ago
  That's not necessarily true, though. Consultants often work hourly on contracts, which means that you're typically punished for being efficient as you won't have as many billable hours. This generally means that you're better off being less efficient while still meeting the deadlines/goals. Of course, there's a tradeoff since proving yourself to be more efficient than expected could result in more work etc, but it's not as clear cut as being rewarded for efficiency.
stinkytaco 10y ago
But you've created a pretty simple project and outcome here where the outcome is measurable and clear. I say build a widget, you build a widget. You're basically a factory worker. (As an aside here, if you've ever worked with a consultant or freelancer, you know that objectives that seem simple and clear to both sides end up not being so clear when the product is delivered and then disagreements ensure). What if, however, I'm an engineer that's working on a new piece of machinery? This is a project that requires the involvement of many highly skilled workers, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, computer programmers, etc. I might be responsible for a single system or even component, but my work directly relies on several other's work, and it may change depending on the circumstances (say the mechanical engineer has designed an arm that would damage a critical electrical system). Now you've got a moving target. One day your work was x, now the circumstances shifted and it's y. With potentially hundreds of people involved it would be very difficult to asses what any one person's contribution was based on your standard above. Indeed, if you could asses that from the beginning, you wouldn't need all those engineers to design your machine since you had already done that work.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  I see how that can be a problem in that context, NASA might never be a candidate for much remote work beacuse they are working on some of humanity's most complex projects for example. I just dont think a lot of work is that complex. Accounting, sales, insurance adjusters, data entry and many other office tasks are easy to quantify. My point is at the end of the day both parties need to be happy enough to continue the relationship tomorrow, I simply dont think i'd care how many hours you put in only if you generate more value then you consume.