5 ms·

Ah the classic "everything is important to someones workflow" https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/

by IIAOPSW 10y ago

b15h0p 10y ago
Exactly, this is the important lesson here: Every single little feature that you introduce will be used by someone and you either have to support it forever (the classic Microsoft-strategy) or take it out and risk the anger of a part of your users. Who will probably complain very loudly.
- akerro 10y ago
  or will just stop upgrading the software and reopen bugs that were closed in future versions. I do it. I still use KeePassX 1 because it's much more user friendly for me and provides more settings.
- BillinghamJ 10y ago
  The main problem is that the longer you support it, the more ingrained it gets into the minds of the users. So the pain and anger of taking it away increases as it is supported longer. Everything will have to be taken away eventually, so Microsoft's approach of trying to support things forever is fundamentally flawed. They do seem to have made a decent shift away from that now though, thankfully.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    And you see the crowds getting their torches against UWP, while I see it how .NET should have been done in 2000 (Ext-VOS). https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dsyme/2012/07/05/more-c-net-generics-research-project-history-the-msr-white-paper-from-mid-1999/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dsyme/2012/07/05/more-c-net...
  - Piskvorrr 10y ago
    Shift+Del and Ctrl+Insert are still there, even though Ctrl+X and Ctrl+V have been the "official" keybindings for two decades now.
- retox 10y ago
  See also: the recent removal of backspace to go back a page in Chrome And Firefox. Luckily I have a 4 button mouse with dedicated back/forward buttons or I would be mad as hell.
  - amluto 10y ago
    Good riddance. The problem with backspace is that it means "delete one character" unless you managed to unfocus a text box, in which case it means "lose the whole form and maybe hose the whole application flow". It was actively harmful.
    - JBiserkov 10y ago
      As the joke goes: "The person who invented 'press backspace to go back' is still on the run".
    - Senji 10y ago
      What you should be asking yourself is why don't forms behave as if the browser had the Lazarus extension (for firefox and chrome) already installed. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-recovery/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-... https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/lazarus-form-recovery/loljledaigphbcpfhfmgopdkppkifgno?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/lazarus-form-recov...
    - aidenn0 10y ago
      The default behavior in firefox on linux is to go to a page when you middle-click anywhere that isn't a text box. This took me a while to figure out when I was trying to paste and missed the text-box. I never noticed until I got a linux laptop because missing textboxes on my desktop is a rare occurrence, but with a trackpad I miss all the time.
  - MaulingMonkey 10y ago
    Ẅ̪͓́̐ͣ̔̏͜h̟͍̩̻͔̼̄ė͈̙̗ͪͩ͌ͫ̚r͉͈̥̎ͅe̥̥̻̹͓̘̋̏͆̓̽͢ ̸͖̞͚̖̒̉̈ͥ̌̚ͅo̵̬ͪ̌h͐ͧ̀͒͑̓ͨ ̢̖̜͙̺̺̏w̱̺͙͖̖̤ͤ͂̊̊ͨ͌̽ͅh͔̪̱̝̣̰̽ͮͩͧ̈́͢ḙ͉͓͉̖̩̰̋̀̽̚r͛͌҉̫̤̘͚e̐̄ͤ͆̓ͣͅ ̑̒̍̓̑͘h̫̤̭̥̜̦̪͐̋̏̚a̡s̞̝̳̅ͥ ̨m̡̻̮̞̗̥͖ͩy͚̘͖ͅ ҉̫̱͇b͙̥̠͈̂́͐ͮâ̦̗̙͙̲̦̹̕cͫ҉̘͕̹̖k̟̠s͔͌͛ͦp̲̝a̷̞̫͓̰̫̫̍̏ͣͦͨͩͅc͕̩ͤ̀ę͍̯͈̂̇̉̏̊͂ͭ ̯̠̼̹̭́ǵ̞̱ơ̞͙͓̱̩̳̺̑̆̆ͣͭ͑͆n͏̫̲͙͔̟̝͖ẹ͈̭͚ͯ̄̕ͅ?̸̒!̬̱͎̓͂ͅ?̳̰̭̫̽̈̔ͧ̚͞ͅ . The info popup to inform me that Alt+Left is an alternative was a nice touch, though. I'm still adjusting...
tajen 10y ago
Except this person has a very straightforward workaround: Use the X button. Win95 could have removed the system menu when they replaced it with an icon of the application, but so many programs were fiddling with the frame drawing that some probably couldn't be closed without the system menu. > "Up and down" made sense. "Line and box"? Windows 95 brought a lot of advantages, but we lost so much of the little touches along the way. This is a typical migration problem: The line and box icons represent the Taskbar and the full screen window, so they actually make much more sense than Up and Down arrows, but this user still hasn't adapted. Hard to blame him: With Aero, windows don't look like rectangles anymore and bubbles would better represent the Taskbar than a line. For the same historical reason he likes double clicking for powerful actions, except click vs double-click doesn't have any logic or consistency anymore, mostly since we introduced the Web and the single click. <s>No click is even enough to upgrade to Windows 10 </s>. Heck, my parents keep double-clicking everywhere in Windows, including in web pages. Submitting forms twice is so much a problem in companies that jQuery plugins exist to discard the second click on links and buttons. Consistency and user migration path are hard problems. It's necessary to remove features sometimes.
- stuaxo 10y ago
  It also contains options all the window options accessible by keyboard.

Ah the classic "everything is important to someones workflow" https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/

by IIAOPSW 10y ago

Ah the classic "everything is important to someones workflow" https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/

Exactly, this is the important lesson here: Every single little feature that you introduce will be used by someone and you either have to support it forever (the classic Microsoft-strategy) or take it out and risk the anger of a part of your users. Who will probably complain very loudly.

akerro 10y ago
or will just stop upgrading the software and reopen bugs that were closed in future versions. I do it. I still use KeePassX 1 because it's much more user friendly for me and provides more settings.
BillinghamJ 10y ago
The main problem is that the longer you support it, the more ingrained it gets into the minds of the users. So the pain and anger of taking it away increases as it is supported longer. Everything will have to be taken away eventually, so Microsoft's approach of trying to support things forever is fundamentally flawed. They do seem to have made a decent shift away from that now though, thankfully.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  And you see the crowds getting their torches against UWP, while I see it how .NET should have been done in 2000 (Ext-VOS). https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dsyme/2012/07/05/more-c-net-generics-research-project-history-the-msr-white-paper-from-mid-1999/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dsyme/2012/07/05/more-c-net...
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  Shift+Del and Ctrl+Insert are still there, even though Ctrl+X and Ctrl+V have been the "official" keybindings for two decades now.
retox 10y ago
See also: the recent removal of backspace to go back a page in Chrome And Firefox. Luckily I have a 4 button mouse with dedicated back/forward buttons or I would be mad as hell.
- amluto 10y ago
  Good riddance. The problem with backspace is that it means "delete one character" unless you managed to unfocus a text box, in which case it means "lose the whole form and maybe hose the whole application flow". It was actively harmful.
  - JBiserkov 10y ago
    As the joke goes: "The person who invented 'press backspace to go back' is still on the run".
  - Senji 10y ago
    What you should be asking yourself is why don't forms behave as if the browser had the Lazarus extension (for firefox and chrome) already installed. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-recovery/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-... https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/lazarus-form-recovery/loljledaigphbcpfhfmgopdkppkifgno?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/lazarus-form-recov...
  - aidenn0 10y ago
    The default behavior in firefox on linux is to go to a page when you middle-click anywhere that isn't a text box. This took me a while to figure out when I was trying to paste and missed the text-box. I never noticed until I got a linux laptop because missing textboxes on my desktop is a rare occurrence, but with a trackpad I miss all the time.
- MaulingMonkey 10y ago
  Ẅ̪͓́̐ͣ̔̏͜h̟͍̩̻͔̼̄ė͈̙̗ͪͩ͌ͫ̚r͉͈̥̎ͅe̥̥̻̹͓̘̋̏͆̓̽͢ ̸͖̞͚̖̒̉̈ͥ̌̚ͅo̵̬ͪ̌h͐ͧ̀͒͑̓ͨ ̢̖̜͙̺̺̏w̱̺͙͖̖̤ͤ͂̊̊ͨ͌̽ͅh͔̪̱̝̣̰̽ͮͩͧ̈́͢ḙ͉͓͉̖̩̰̋̀̽̚r͛͌҉̫̤̘͚e̐̄ͤ͆̓ͣͅ ̑̒̍̓̑͘h̫̤̭̥̜̦̪͐̋̏̚a̡s̞̝̳̅ͥ ̨m̡̻̮̞̗̥͖ͩy͚̘͖ͅ ҉̫̱͇b͙̥̠͈̂́͐ͮâ̦̗̙͙̲̦̹̕cͫ҉̘͕̹̖k̟̠s͔͌͛ͦp̲̝a̷̞̫͓̰̫̫̍̏ͣͦͨͩͅc͕̩ͤ̀ę͍̯͈̂̇̉̏̊͂ͭ ̯̠̼̹̭́ǵ̞̱ơ̞͙͓̱̩̳̺̑̆̆ͣͭ͑͆n͏̫̲͙͔̟̝͖ẹ͈̭͚ͯ̄̕ͅ?̸̒!̬̱͎̓͂ͅ?̳̰̭̫̽̈̔ͧ̚͞ͅ . The info popup to inform me that Alt+Left is an alternative was a nice touch, though. I'm still adjusting...

tajen 10y ago

Except this person has a very straightforward workaround: Use the X button. Win95 could have removed the system menu when they replaced it with an icon of the application, but so many programs were fiddling with the frame drawing that some probably couldn't be closed without the system menu. > "Up and down" made sense. "Line and box"? Windows 95 brought a lot of advantages, but we lost so much of the little touches along the way. This is a typical migration problem: The line and box icons represent the Taskbar and the full screen window, so they actually make much more sense than Up and Down arrows, but this user still hasn't adapted. Hard to blame him: With Aero, windows don't look like rectangles anymore and bubbles would better represent the Taskbar than a line. For the same historical reason he likes double clicking for powerful actions, except click vs double-click doesn't have any logic or consistency anymore, mostly since we introduced the Web and the single click. <s>No click is even enough to upgrade to Windows 10 </s>. Heck, my parents keep double-clicking everywhere in Windows, including in web pages. Submitting forms twice is so much a problem in companies that jQuery plugins exist to discard the second click on links and buttons. Consistency and user migration path are hard problems. It's necessary to remove features sometimes.

stuaxo 10y ago
It also contains options all the window options accessible by keyboard.