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That's just not true. For example, universal basic income--a leftist idea even by European standards--has been discussed several times on HN. Lots of substantiv

by dcposch 10y ago

That's just not true. For example, universal basic income--a leftist idea even by European standards--has been discussed several times on HN. Lots of substantive comments both for and against.

labster 10y ago
Are you sure UBI is a leftist idea? The things that go along with UBI read like a right-wing wishlist: eliminate the minimum wage, discontinue welfare and unemployment benefits, and end the food stamp program. In its place, the free market would determine how best to spend basic income.
- flukus 10y ago
  It was originally a right wing idea, often known as mincome (minimum income) or a reverse tax. Milton Friedman was one of the earliest proponents of the idea.
- int_19h 10y ago
  The core notion of it, though, which is government handing out money to people, is rather contrary to pure right-wing (especially libertarian) thinking; even more so when it comes to the "universal" part. It tends to be supported by some more pragmatic libertarians, who recognize that some form of welfare is necessary, and see UBI as the least-overhead form that, if not the cheapest economically, keeps the associated bureaucracy (and the government sprawl induced by that) to the minimum. However, it is also a popular idea on the left, especially among the more individualist-minded liberals, left libertarians etc.
- js8 10y ago
  Yes, it is a leftist idea. Definition of left is that they care about social and economic equality. (The understanding - IMHO wrong - of left as proposing big state ultimately comes from Communist Manifesto, where Marx used "the State" in a certain sense as a shorthand.) Basic income would mean that part of GDP is redistributed in purely democratic manner - everybody gets the same piece of pie, whether they deserve it or not. It's very similar to democracy, but on economic level. And democracy is in fact very leftist idea (if you look at history of the left), because again, it proposes that all people should the exact same political power (one person, one vote), regardless what they are or what they do or contribute. The fact that today's right (at least partially) accepts some of these ideas, such as democracy or UBI, is actually a success of left, or manifestation of the reality having a liberal bias. :-)
  - Senji 10y ago
    Neocons are basically leftists, so there's not really anything surprising.
wutbrodo 10y ago
Yea, basic income isn't really that associated with leftism. The super-hard-right libertarian stance of "let people starve if they can't hack it" obviously doesn't like it, but otherwise it's basically a simple combination of wanting a social floor but without the attendant complexity, perverse incentives, and inefficiency of means-tested gov't programs. This view fits pretty comfortably in the center and center-right, while the left often just sees it as a way to low-key dismantle social programs that they're fond of.

by dcposch 10y ago

That's just not true. For example, universal basic income--a leftist idea even by European standards--has been discussed several times on HN. Lots of substantive comments both for and against.

labster 10y ago

Are you sure UBI is a leftist idea? The things that go along with UBI read like a right-wing wishlist: eliminate the minimum wage, discontinue welfare and unemployment benefits, and end the food stamp program. In its place, the free market would determine how best to spend basic income.

flukus 10y ago
It was originally a right wing idea, often known as mincome (minimum income) or a reverse tax. Milton Friedman was one of the earliest proponents of the idea.
int_19h 10y ago
The core notion of it, though, which is government handing out money to people, is rather contrary to pure right-wing (especially libertarian) thinking; even more so when it comes to the "universal" part. It tends to be supported by some more pragmatic libertarians, who recognize that some form of welfare is necessary, and see UBI as the least-overhead form that, if not the cheapest economically, keeps the associated bureaucracy (and the government sprawl induced by that) to the minimum. However, it is also a popular idea on the left, especially among the more individualist-minded liberals, left libertarians etc.
js8 10y ago
Yes, it is a leftist idea. Definition of left is that they care about social and economic equality. (The understanding - IMHO wrong - of left as proposing big state ultimately comes from Communist Manifesto, where Marx used "the State" in a certain sense as a shorthand.) Basic income would mean that part of GDP is redistributed in purely democratic manner - everybody gets the same piece of pie, whether they deserve it or not. It's very similar to democracy, but on economic level. And democracy is in fact very leftist idea (if you look at history of the left), because again, it proposes that all people should the exact same political power (one person, one vote), regardless what they are or what they do or contribute. The fact that today's right (at least partially) accepts some of these ideas, such as democracy or UBI, is actually a success of left, or manifestation of the reality having a liberal bias. :-)
- Senji 10y ago
  Neocons are basically leftists, so there's not really anything surprising.

wutbrodo 10y ago

Yea, basic income isn't really that associated with leftism. The super-hard-right libertarian stance of "let people starve if they can't hack it" obviously doesn't like it, but otherwise it's basically a simple combination of wanting a social floor but without the attendant complexity, perverse incentives, and inefficiency of means-tested gov't programs. This view fits pretty comfortably in the center and center-right, while the left often just sees it as a way to low-key dismantle social programs that they're fond of.