4 ms·

My Letter to the Tor Project

100 points by Kristine1975 10y ago

makepanic 10y ago
related (flagged) thread of the zeit.de article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12303927 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12303927
- phaser 10y ago
  Why it was flagged?
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Because it is drama, just like this post. (A more precise answer would be that your question is impossible to really answer, since it's the users of the site who flag stories; it's like asking why something was upvoted.)
    - kwerner 10y ago
      It is not drama if two German equivalents of the New York Times and the Washington Post both slam the Tor foundation's behavior. This is the other one: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/medien/jagd-auf-jacob-appelbaum-das-tor-projekt-laviert-14378139.html http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/medien/jagd-auf-jacob-... The FAZ and the Zeit are two of the most serious newspapers in Germany. FAZ is conservative/business friendly.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        I'm afraid these particular authorities aren't meaningful enough to me to make compelling appeals to them. This all sure looks like drama to me. That is at least why I flagged them. For what it's worth, I flagged a bunch of anti-Appelbaum stories too. For the same reason. Drama.
        918891212 10y ago
        Neither you or the Tor foundation are authorities to me either. The story is not only Appelbaum, but how a bureaucratic authority can affect someone's life, how much power OSS devs should give to foundations. Most people here are of course safe, since they don't do OSS and just leech other people's work.
        tptacek 10y ago
        Comments like this are the reason I flag anything that looks like it will generate drama. Thanks for helping me make my point.
segphault 10y ago
Back when I was a tech journalist, I always felt uncomfortable speaking with representatives of the Tor project. Their approach to communicating always seemed needlessly accusatory and combative. It left me with the strong impression that they are more interested in shouting down criticism and downplaying the extent to which Tor is abused rather than educating the public and engaging with the broader tech community in good faith. The poor way that the organization and its members have dealt with the allegations made against Applebaum over the years seems emblematic of the broader problems with their culture and the inept way that they handle criticism and internal failures. I think a lot of us, particularly open source enthusiasts and civil libertarians, are inclined to give them a free pass because we value the underlying ideas that the Tor project ostensibly represents. But it's increasingly clear that not holding the organization to higher standards of accountability was a disservice to the ecosystem.
dmvaldman 10y ago
It took many thousands of years for humans to create a judicial process with rights for the accused. It's sad to see how quickly we can all fall back to mobs with pitch forks, with justice decided on platforms like Twitter.
youwhat 10y ago
The Tor developers are such a mess. I'm surprised they get any work done with the needless paranoid drama they keep kicking up. This is even without considering all the rapes Appelbaum probably did. I think the project just attracts unprofessional weirdos.
- sporkenfang 10y ago
  Ever tried to contribute? Their trac is such a mess it's incredibly difficult to find something to work on, let alone someone sane to talk to about which tickets are actually open and need work. irc channels are pretty much dead except the newb-help channel, no matter what time of the day you log on. It's a weirdly cloistered project with little outside visibility, especially for an open source project and this crap has made me want to stay really, really far away. I'll stick to contributing other places where the public image isn't a disaster.
- maglavaitss 10y ago
  Well said, random throwaway account. Shouldn't there be a presumption of innocence involved? /s
nzjrs 10y ago
All stories that aren't in favour of a good old fashioned lynching get flagged and then removed.
- Kristine1975 10y ago
  >lynching Last I heard Appelbaum is still alive, though?
  - elevensies 10y ago
    Lynching is an epithet for Social Justice, and vice-versa.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- dang 10y ago
  Dramatic overgeneralization as a rhetorical device isn't great for this community. What you've said is not a true statement, even apart from its inflammatory snark. True statements include that the community is divided on most controversial issues and that there's often a tug of war between flags, vouches, and upvotes when it comes to stories like this.
  - nzjrs 10y ago
    > What you've said is not a true statement Sorry. Allow me to clarify. It is my observation that > stories which aren't in favour of a good old fashioned lynching often, and especially in the last 12 months > get flagged and then removed.

100 points by Kristine1975 10y ago

related (flagged) thread of the zeit.de article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12303927 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12303927

phaser 10y ago
Why it was flagged?
- tptacek 10y ago
  Because it is drama, just like this post. (A more precise answer would be that your question is impossible to really answer, since it's the users of the site who flag stories; it's like asking why something was upvoted.)
  - kwerner 10y ago
    It is not drama if two German equivalents of the New York Times and the Washington Post both slam the Tor foundation's behavior. This is the other one: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/medien/jagd-auf-jacob-appelbaum-das-tor-projekt-laviert-14378139.html http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/medien/jagd-auf-jacob-... The FAZ and the Zeit are two of the most serious newspapers in Germany. FAZ is conservative/business friendly.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      I'm afraid these particular authorities aren't meaningful enough to me to make compelling appeals to them. This all sure looks like drama to me. That is at least why I flagged them. For what it's worth, I flagged a bunch of anti-Appelbaum stories too. For the same reason. Drama.
      - 918891212 10y ago
        Neither you or the Tor foundation are authorities to me either. The story is not only Appelbaum, but how a bureaucratic authority can affect someone's life, how much power OSS devs should give to foundations. Most people here are of course safe, since they don't do OSS and just leech other people's work.
        tptacek 10y ago
        Comments like this are the reason I flag anything that looks like it will generate drama. Thanks for helping me make my point.

segphault 10y ago

Back when I was a tech journalist, I always felt uncomfortable speaking with representatives of the Tor project. Their approach to communicating always seemed needlessly accusatory and combative. It left me with the strong impression that they are more interested in shouting down criticism and downplaying the extent to which Tor is abused rather than educating the public and engaging with the broader tech community in good faith. The poor way that the organization and its members have dealt with the allegations made against Applebaum over the years seems emblematic of the broader problems with their culture and the inept way that they handle criticism and internal failures. I think a lot of us, particularly open source enthusiasts and civil libertarians, are inclined to give them a free pass because we value the underlying ideas that the Tor project ostensibly represents. But it's increasingly clear that not holding the organization to higher standards of accountability was a disservice to the ecosystem.

dmvaldman 10y ago

It took many thousands of years for humans to create a judicial process with rights for the accused. It's sad to see how quickly we can all fall back to mobs with pitch forks, with justice decided on platforms like Twitter.

youwhat 10y ago

The Tor developers are such a mess. I'm surprised they get any work done with the needless paranoid drama they keep kicking up. This is even without considering all the rapes Appelbaum probably did. I think the project just attracts unprofessional weirdos.

sporkenfang 10y ago
Ever tried to contribute? Their trac is such a mess it's incredibly difficult to find something to work on, let alone someone sane to talk to about which tickets are actually open and need work. irc channels are pretty much dead except the newb-help channel, no matter what time of the day you log on. It's a weirdly cloistered project with little outside visibility, especially for an open source project and this crap has made me want to stay really, really far away. I'll stick to contributing other places where the public image isn't a disaster.
maglavaitss 10y ago
Well said, random throwaway account. Shouldn't there be a presumption of innocence involved? /s

nzjrs 10y ago

All stories that aren't in favour of a good old fashioned lynching get flagged and then removed.

Kristine1975 10y ago
>lynching Last I heard Appelbaum is still alive, though?
- elevensies 10y ago
  Lynching is an epithet for Social Justice, and vice-versa.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
dang 10y ago
Dramatic overgeneralization as a rhetorical device isn't great for this community. What you've said is not a true statement, even apart from its inflammatory snark. True statements include that the community is divided on most controversial issues and that there's often a tug of war between flags, vouches, and upvotes when it comes to stories like this.
- nzjrs 10y ago
  > What you've said is not a true statement Sorry. Allow me to clarify. It is my observation that > stories which aren't in favour of a good old fashioned lynching often, and especially in the last 12 months > get flagged and then removed.