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Lots of hype but sadly very little science going on here. They have a few superficial models of hippocampal circuitry but almost nothing about how that circuit

Lots of hype but sadly very little science going on here. They have a few superficial models of hippocampal circuitry but almost nothing about how that circuit fits into the larger systems of learning and memory. There so many major technical issues that make this little more than vapor wear. The hippocampal neural code is largely un-understood. Without the code they'll be flipping random bits and hoping for the best (akin to flipping bits in ram without understanding how the OS is representing data in RAM). We still don't have reliable hardware for reading the activity of the brain. Most implants go bad after a few weeks with very few lasting up to a few years. Surgery every few years is unreasonable as each implant will leave behind permanent damage. Next writing information to the brain is still in its infancy. We can disrupt processing with electrical stimulation but too much current will trigger a seizure (especially in the hippocampus). There's a lot of hope around Opto-genetics but we still need to figure out how to get targeted expression in an already developed human brain. It can take years to get expression right in developing mice.

kristjankalm 10y ago
"An implanted memory prosthetic would have electrodes to record signals during learning, a microprocessor to do the computations, and electrodes that stimulate neurons to encode the information as a memory." or in other words -- we record "signals", then compute something, and finally "stimulate" the neurons. I appreciate that this isn't a scientific report but this borders on parody. The magnitude of technical, computational and biological problems to be solved here in order to achieve anything even remotely close to the headline would require 3-4 major scientific breakthroughs. With all respect, you don't publish them in IEEE proceedings.
- bognition 10y ago
  exactly!
- newsbeagle 10y ago
  Here's more technical detail from IEEE Spectrum on memory prosthetics, from an article about a similarly ambitious DARPA project: http://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/bionics/darpa-project-starts-building-human-memory-prosthetics http://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/bionics/darpa-project-st...
- jdpigeon 10y ago
  Their early experiments did pretty well with hardly any computation at all -- just recreating previously recorded patterns of activity. They can probably do some pretty cool stuff by adding machine learning (which they're definitely interested in based on who they're hiring)
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  Even assuming we could do a good brain prostethic, with our current computer hardware and software, what would it be able to do? What springs first to mind is remembering lots of data, or doing arithmetic fast. But would such a brain prostethic offer any real-world benefits over a human using a laptop or calculator? OTOH, I suppose you could record signals from someone skilled in something, and then use those to augment training of someone else. Like in The Matrix. But by then we would be bumping into what today are philosophical questions, like "how compatible are different people's mental models of self and of the world"? Also, what would this mean for e.g. eyewitnesses used in court? In a dystopian world, you could always imagine some criminal gang "programming" otherwise reliable eyewitnesses to give them alibis. Or even a shady government implanting memories of a crime into someone's head, in order to make them confess to that crime. Or, suppose that a government could literally read your mind and tell if you did something or not. Would you be protected from that under the Fifth Amendment?
newsbeagle 10y ago
DARPA is also forging ahead with memory prosthetics, despite all the neuroscience unknowns. The agency wants a clinical implant by 2018: http://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/bionics/darpa-project-starts-building-human-memory-prosthetics http://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/bionics/darpa-project-st...
- deleted 10y ago
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- deleted 10y ago
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drzaiusapelord 10y ago
Its also bad news that Alzheimer's and dementia caused memory loss has a lot of funding aimed at it. The "Alzheimer's is brain inflammation" theory has gotten a lot of traction lately. In fact, there was just a study that showed a NSAID could treat memory issues, at least in mice models. http://www.medicaldaily.com/period-pain-drug-can-cure-alzheimers-disease-new-study-suggests-394583 http://www.medicaldaily.com/period-pain-drug-can-cure-alzhei... I suspect they fell out of "stealth mode" because they're up against the clock here. We may have simple pill-based Alzheimer's treatment in a decade or so. Brain surgery is a hard sell even if they solve all the technical issues. If the inflammation theory is right, then a anti-inflammation treatment that can work its way past the blood-brain barrier might be the best treatment here. If its just a modified NSAID it would be very cheap and very low risk. >“He thinks the next big challenge for the human race is how to improve our brains,” says Berger. The problem I see is that intellectual people overvalue intellectualism. Way too many billionaires are funding vanity pie-in-the-sky projects like keeping their minds alive and youthful forever or brain training sites/apps instead of funding things that could actually work and help 'regular' people. I suspect socially smart people know how to play deep pocketed nerds and empty their wallets. This startup seems like a fairly bullshit venture imo, or at least way too pie-in-the-sky to remotely go public or start sending out press releases.
return0 10y ago
Deep brain stimulation works without having complete knowledge of deep nuclei either. It's possible that by simply increasing the excitability of neurons they manage to 'resurface' learning (has been shown for place cells and DG cells).
- bognition 10y ago
  Yes, but DBS is categorically different than what they are trying to do here. DBS is designed to excited/inhibit entire brain regions. What they are proposing here is to interface directly with the circuits and modulate activity at the level of single neurons.
jdpigeon 10y ago
With the papers that have been done in rodents and primates, the fascinating take-away is that the implanted chips actually do improve memory despite our lack of understanding the neural code. Just like the advances that have been made in brain-computer interfaces that record from the motor cortex, it's quite possible that the brain's plasticity allows it to work with relatively simple circuitry. There's no reason to slow down development of technology like this (as long as it's safe). I believe they've shown some pretty promising clinical results in humans already. Also, they've got some of the best memory researchers in the world on their team (Boyden), so it's not like they're unaware of the challenges they are addressing.
- jcoffland 10y ago
  Right but for how long? The brain is plastic. A static model seems unlikely to be effective for very long. The brain will likely route around over stimulated neurons.

kristjankalm 10y ago

"An implanted memory prosthetic would have electrodes to record signals during learning, a microprocessor to do the computations, and electrodes that stimulate neurons to encode the information as a memory." or in other words -- we record "signals", then compute something, and finally "stimulate" the neurons. I appreciate that this isn't a scientific report but this borders on parody. The magnitude of technical, computational and biological problems to be solved here in order to achieve anything even remotely close to the headline would require 3-4 major scientific breakthroughs. With all respect, you don't publish them in IEEE proceedings.

bognition 10y ago
exactly!
newsbeagle 10y ago
Here's more technical detail from IEEE Spectrum on memory prosthetics, from an article about a similarly ambitious DARPA project: http://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/bionics/darpa-project-starts-building-human-memory-prosthetics http://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/bionics/darpa-project-st...
jdpigeon 10y ago
Their early experiments did pretty well with hardly any computation at all -- just recreating previously recorded patterns of activity. They can probably do some pretty cool stuff by adding machine learning (which they're definitely interested in based on who they're hiring)
semi-extrinsic 10y ago
Even assuming we could do a good brain prostethic, with our current computer hardware and software, what would it be able to do? What springs first to mind is remembering lots of data, or doing arithmetic fast. But would such a brain prostethic offer any real-world benefits over a human using a laptop or calculator? OTOH, I suppose you could record signals from someone skilled in something, and then use those to augment training of someone else. Like in The Matrix. But by then we would be bumping into what today are philosophical questions, like "how compatible are different people's mental models of self and of the world"? Also, what would this mean for e.g. eyewitnesses used in court? In a dystopian world, you could always imagine some criminal gang "programming" otherwise reliable eyewitnesses to give them alibis. Or even a shady government implanting memories of a crime into someone's head, in order to make them confess to that crime. Or, suppose that a government could literally read your mind and tell if you did something or not. Would you be protected from that under the Fifth Amendment?

newsbeagle 10y ago

DARPA is also forging ahead with memory prosthetics, despite all the neuroscience unknowns. The agency wants a clinical implant by 2018: http://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/bionics/darpa-project-starts-building-human-memory-prosthetics http://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/bionics/darpa-project-st...

deleted 10y ago
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deleted 10y ago
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drzaiusapelord 10y ago

Its also bad news that Alzheimer's and dementia caused memory loss has a lot of funding aimed at it. The "Alzheimer's is brain inflammation" theory has gotten a lot of traction lately. In fact, there was just a study that showed a NSAID could treat memory issues, at least in mice models. http://www.medicaldaily.com/period-pain-drug-can-cure-alzheimers-disease-new-study-suggests-394583 http://www.medicaldaily.com/period-pain-drug-can-cure-alzhei... I suspect they fell out of "stealth mode" because they're up against the clock here. We may have simple pill-based Alzheimer's treatment in a decade or so. Brain surgery is a hard sell even if they solve all the technical issues. If the inflammation theory is right, then a anti-inflammation treatment that can work its way past the blood-brain barrier might be the best treatment here. If its just a modified NSAID it would be very cheap and very low risk. >“He thinks the next big challenge for the human race is how to improve our brains,” says Berger. The problem I see is that intellectual people overvalue intellectualism. Way too many billionaires are funding vanity pie-in-the-sky projects like keeping their minds alive and youthful forever or brain training sites/apps instead of funding things that could actually work and help 'regular' people. I suspect socially smart people know how to play deep pocketed nerds and empty their wallets. This startup seems like a fairly bullshit venture imo, or at least way too pie-in-the-sky to remotely go public or start sending out press releases.

return0 10y ago

Deep brain stimulation works without having complete knowledge of deep nuclei either. It's possible that by simply increasing the excitability of neurons they manage to 'resurface' learning (has been shown for place cells and DG cells).

bognition 10y ago
Yes, but DBS is categorically different than what they are trying to do here. DBS is designed to excited/inhibit entire brain regions. What they are proposing here is to interface directly with the circuits and modulate activity at the level of single neurons.

jdpigeon 10y ago

With the papers that have been done in rodents and primates, the fascinating take-away is that the implanted chips actually do improve memory despite our lack of understanding the neural code. Just like the advances that have been made in brain-computer interfaces that record from the motor cortex, it's quite possible that the brain's plasticity allows it to work with relatively simple circuitry. There's no reason to slow down development of technology like this (as long as it's safe). I believe they've shown some pretty promising clinical results in humans already. Also, they've got some of the best memory researchers in the world on their team (Boyden), so it's not like they're unaware of the challenges they are addressing.

jcoffland 10y ago
Right but for how long? The brain is plastic. A static model seems unlikely to be effective for very long. The brain will likely route around over stimulated neurons.