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Socialization. A 10-year-old prodigy going into a calculus class full of seniors is not going to spend much time socializing with their emotional peers.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
cperciva 10y ago
This is a poor argument. Seriously: I didn't spend much time socializing with my chronological peers either. At least with my academic peers we had some shared interests.
- dibujante 10y ago
  I didn't either, but it's not a poor argument just because you're an exception to it. Socialization is a very important part of human development.
  - cperciva 10y ago
    It's a poor argument because it makes the unsupported assumption that children will socialize better with their chronological peers than with their intellectual peers. I agree that socialization is important - and that's exactly why I think it's entirely unreasonable to surround children with people with whom they share nothing except age.
dragonwriter 10y ago
A 10-year-old prodigy that could be succeeding in a calculus class full of seniors but who is actually stuck in a class of 10-year-olds struggling with arithmetic is not going to spend as much time socializing with their intellectual peers, and is also probably going to spend as little time socializing with their age peers as if they went to the calculus class -- being forced into a class with them doesn't mean socializing with them. (As for emotional peers, given the correlation between social and general intelligence, their age peers are unlikely to represent their emotional peers, so sticking them with age peers is also crippling their time spent socializing with emotional peers.) Money (for the school) is a more likely explanation, as I argue elsewhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12298579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12298579
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
Exactly this. I had a friend that skipped a grade, and the age difference affected her. She was 17 in her first year of college, unable to fully participate, for example. Many kids that are held back a year find other sorts of problems as well - sexual maturity and hormones a year ahead of their classmates, for example. The other problem i've seen with "advanced" students is complete seperation from other students, with the implicit expectation that the students should be more mature because they were smart. One school system did this from a young age, and in high school there were multiples that simply had trouble socializing with 'normal' students. Really had a detrimental effect on some of them. I would approve of specialized sorts of schedules for such 10 year olds, however. Part of the day in the classes needed for their level, while going back to enjoy the other classes with their emotional and developmental peers. Art, music, physical education, lunch, recess, and some of the reading (after all, it would be fun stories at an emotional level they understand), etc. Perhaps even special advanced classes with a lighter homework load designed for the advanced student, for example, could be worked in.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  I was pushed ahead a grade, and didn't have many issues in elementary school, until we moved in the middle of 5th grade. Had to deal with a whole new set of people who I'd not grown up with, and that then carried on to middle and high school. No doubt the adolescent period would have been more difficult had I stayed in the original school, but I think it would have had less contributing factor. I did occasionally get in to some 'trouble' with 'peers' (not really my peers, but others in the school) being 'advanced'. Example: 4th grade - teacher gets sick - our class is split in to 2 to go sit with 5th grade classes for the last 2 hours of school. "just sit and read". Fine... but the 5th grade teacher was covering math lessons, and was asking questions - "who knows ... (fill in the blank)?". Silence in the room, except for me raising my hand. "I know!" She was thinking I wanted to leave the room, and kept ignoring me, until I spoke the answer. Pissed off the other 9-11 year old kids having a 8 year old answer their math questions (it was something to do with fractions). I got a scratch-n-sniff pine tree sticker for my answer, and was told to keep reading my book and not disturb the class any more... Still had that sticker until a few years ago (it didn't smell any more).
peter303 10y ago
Also physical development in sports. A year can make quite a difference. There is a practice called holding-back to start kids a half to full year late for better sports, learning and socialization.
panglott 10y ago
I started taking college classes part time at 12, dropped out of high school my junior year, and graduated college at 19. Socialization was the main reason my parents kept me in high school. But it meant I had to deal with the high school administration much of the time. I was not prepared to socialize well with either group of people: I was an odd duck in both groups. The place I found best to socialize with was with the Quick Recall-type kids, or with those who could have gotten into college a little early. The socialization argument cuts both ways.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

cperciva 10y ago

This is a poor argument. Seriously: I didn't spend much time socializing with my chronological peers either. At least with my academic peers we had some shared interests.

dibujante 10y ago
I didn't either, but it's not a poor argument just because you're an exception to it. Socialization is a very important part of human development.
- cperciva 10y ago
  It's a poor argument because it makes the unsupported assumption that children will socialize better with their chronological peers than with their intellectual peers. I agree that socialization is important - and that's exactly why I think it's entirely unreasonable to surround children with people with whom they share nothing except age.

dragonwriter 10y ago

A 10-year-old prodigy that could be succeeding in a calculus class full of seniors but who is actually stuck in a class of 10-year-olds struggling with arithmetic is not going to spend as much time socializing with their intellectual peers, and is also probably going to spend as little time socializing with their age peers as if they went to the calculus class -- being forced into a class with them doesn't mean socializing with them. (As for emotional peers, given the correlation between social and general intelligence, their age peers are unlikely to represent their emotional peers, so sticking them with age peers is also crippling their time spent socializing with emotional peers.) Money (for the school) is a more likely explanation, as I argue elsewhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12298579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12298579

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

Exactly this. I had a friend that skipped a grade, and the age difference affected her. She was 17 in her first year of college, unable to fully participate, for example. Many kids that are held back a year find other sorts of problems as well - sexual maturity and hormones a year ahead of their classmates, for example. The other problem i've seen with "advanced" students is complete seperation from other students, with the implicit expectation that the students should be more mature because they were smart. One school system did this from a young age, and in high school there were multiples that simply had trouble socializing with 'normal' students. Really had a detrimental effect on some of them. I would approve of specialized sorts of schedules for such 10 year olds, however. Part of the day in the classes needed for their level, while going back to enjoy the other classes with their emotional and developmental peers. Art, music, physical education, lunch, recess, and some of the reading (after all, it would be fun stories at an emotional level they understand), etc. Perhaps even special advanced classes with a lighter homework load designed for the advanced student, for example, could be worked in.

mgkimsal 10y ago
I was pushed ahead a grade, and didn't have many issues in elementary school, until we moved in the middle of 5th grade. Had to deal with a whole new set of people who I'd not grown up with, and that then carried on to middle and high school. No doubt the adolescent period would have been more difficult had I stayed in the original school, but I think it would have had less contributing factor. I did occasionally get in to some 'trouble' with 'peers' (not really my peers, but others in the school) being 'advanced'. Example: 4th grade - teacher gets sick - our class is split in to 2 to go sit with 5th grade classes for the last 2 hours of school. "just sit and read". Fine... but the 5th grade teacher was covering math lessons, and was asking questions - "who knows ... (fill in the blank)?". Silence in the room, except for me raising my hand. "I know!" She was thinking I wanted to leave the room, and kept ignoring me, until I spoke the answer. Pissed off the other 9-11 year old kids having a 8 year old answer their math questions (it was something to do with fractions). I got a scratch-n-sniff pine tree sticker for my answer, and was told to keep reading my book and not disturb the class any more... Still had that sticker until a few years ago (it didn't smell any more).

peter303 10y ago

Also physical development in sports. A year can make quite a difference. There is a practice called holding-back to start kids a half to full year late for better sports, learning and socialization.

panglott 10y ago

I started taking college classes part time at 12, dropped out of high school my junior year, and graduated college at 19. Socialization was the main reason my parents kept me in high school. But it meant I had to deal with the high school administration much of the time. I was not prepared to socialize well with either group of people: I was an odd duck in both groups. The place I found best to socialize with was with the Quick Recall-type kids, or with those who could have gotten into college a little early. The socialization argument cuts both ways.