4 ms·

> We all know rolls eyes, adjust your tinfoil hat. Look, even if you believe that dark, unseen forces control the world using the US as a conduit - it would a

> We all know rolls eyes, adjust your tinfoil hat. Look, even if you believe that dark, unseen forces control the world using the US as a conduit - it would appear that the world has been the better for it. Given a choice of world management between Russian and US in this regard, the choice is pretty straightforward. People who complain about Europe, the US and the general Western alliances management of the world are selling a pretty ugly alternative.

794CD01 10y ago
Whether the US is a force for good is a completely different argument than whether it's untrustworthy and/or undemocratic.
- altcognito 10y ago
  #1, Yes, I specifically called out his argument as being hollow, and supported only by an appeal to "everyone knows" - he's self selecting his audience. Even within that audience which implicitly accepts the government is more directly engaged in protection of sovereignty via clandestine means against it's own citizens -- that audience should probably consider the goals of the sources.
saiya-jin 10y ago
I think many people of vietnam, cambodia, laos, indonesia, angola, nicaragua, grenada, most of the middle east, afghanistan, pakistan [1] and so on would strongly disagree. Potentially lesser evil out of 2 evils ain't no good choice. [1] http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html
- altcognito 10y ago
  Most of these countries (or regions) never took up capitalism, free markets, and liberalism. Being partners on either side of a proxy war obviously didn't help.
  - asveikau 10y ago
    So they deserved it then? Please keep in mind you're talking about many innocent bystanders being killed as an outcome of US foreign policy. I don't think it's entirely black and white in the other direction either but your comment strikes me as crass and indifferent towards human life, dehumanizing, confusing people with their larger society and government.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    The classic example of a generally stable and democratic country being overthrown into illiberalism and mass murder by the US is Chile, which was missing from that list.
    - rabeiusura 10y ago
      Would not call 73's chile stable, unless you consider current venezuela a stable country which i do not.
pjc50 10y ago
.. and there's the other half of the false dichotomy: if you're not with "us", you're against us. It's interesting that you choose to use the word "management" here - we in other countries are not left to make our own decisions, they're "managed".
- altcognito 10y ago
  If, you believe what you say. If you believe Russia releasing hacks and influencing US elections -- how is that any different than what the US does? If you believe all that, you have to consider the results of Putin's Russia: Oligarchy & Nationalization, direct imperialism (Ukraine), the support of extremists/facists in foreign countries...
  - pjc50 10y ago
    Yes, Putin's Russia is terrible, and exporting problems. They're a contributor to the Syrian mess as well. That doesn't make it OK for the US to do it as well! This is what I meant by "false dichotomy". If anything, the US (and especially UK) use of domestic surveillance and extraterritorial interference makes it harder for us to argue that Russia should not do those things either.

794CD01 10y ago

Whether the US is a force for good is a completely different argument than whether it's untrustworthy and/or undemocratic.

altcognito 10y ago
#1, Yes, I specifically called out his argument as being hollow, and supported only by an appeal to "everyone knows" - he's self selecting his audience. Even within that audience which implicitly accepts the government is more directly engaged in protection of sovereignty via clandestine means against it's own citizens -- that audience should probably consider the goals of the sources.

saiya-jin 10y ago

I think many people of vietnam, cambodia, laos, indonesia, angola, nicaragua, grenada, most of the middle east, afghanistan, pakistan [1] and so on would strongly disagree. Potentially lesser evil out of 2 evils ain't no good choice. [1] http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

altcognito 10y ago
Most of these countries (or regions) never took up capitalism, free markets, and liberalism. Being partners on either side of a proxy war obviously didn't help.
- asveikau 10y ago
  So they deserved it then? Please keep in mind you're talking about many innocent bystanders being killed as an outcome of US foreign policy. I don't think it's entirely black and white in the other direction either but your comment strikes me as crass and indifferent towards human life, dehumanizing, confusing people with their larger society and government.
- pjc50 10y ago
  The classic example of a generally stable and democratic country being overthrown into illiberalism and mass murder by the US is Chile, which was missing from that list.
  - rabeiusura 10y ago
    Would not call 73's chile stable, unless you consider current venezuela a stable country which i do not.

pjc50 10y ago

.. and there's the other half of the false dichotomy: if you're not with "us", you're against us. It's interesting that you choose to use the word "management" here - we in other countries are not left to make our own decisions, they're "managed".

altcognito 10y ago
If, you believe what you say. If you believe Russia releasing hacks and influencing US elections -- how is that any different than what the US does? If you believe all that, you have to consider the results of Putin's Russia: Oligarchy & Nationalization, direct imperialism (Ukraine), the support of extremists/facists in foreign countries...
- pjc50 10y ago
  Yes, Putin's Russia is terrible, and exporting problems. They're a contributor to the Syrian mess as well. That doesn't make it OK for the US to do it as well! This is what I meant by "false dichotomy". If anything, the US (and especially UK) use of domestic surveillance and extraterritorial interference makes it harder for us to argue that Russia should not do those things either.