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Why do people insist on calling the US a democracy ? It is a Constitutional Republic with the only democratic process being the representatives you elect ....

by geggam 10y ago

Why do people insist on calling the US a democracy ? It is a Constitutional Republic with the only democratic process being the representatives you elect .... represent you ... sometimes... if they feel like it.... unless they have been bribe^H^H^H^H lobbied to do otherwise.

dpark 10y ago
Because it is a democracy. When you democratically elect representatives, it's a democracy. If you elect incompetent, or corrupt, or evil representatives, it's still a democracy.
- thinkdevcode 10y ago
  While I see what you are saying, the OP to your post has it correct. You can say a republic is a bastardized form of democracy, but the reverse is not true. You can look at one of the few true democracies that has ever existed as an example - ancient Greece. Every citizen[1] could vote and put forward changes to laws or even create new laws (obviously with a majority vote). [1] A citizen was considered to be any person born of Greece, white and male.
  - schoen 10y ago
    I think you're thinking of the Athenian democracy, because Greece wasn't politically unified at that time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy I doubt that the Athenians had the present-day concept of "white people". Wikipedia says that citizens "had to be descended from citizens", so maybe at least in a certain era nobody known to be descended from people coming from outside of Athens could be a citizen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy#Citizenship_in_Athens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy#Citizenship... Edit: looking at one of the references, it seems that there was a year when explicit citizenship lists were drawn up based on all free men who lived in Athens (maybe with some kind of ethnic exclusion at that time too?). From then on until Pericles, children could be added to the list if their fathers were on the list. After Pericles, children could be added to the list if their mothers and fathers were on the list.
  - vintermann 10y ago
    First, it was Athens, not Greece as a whole. It was free, male descendants of Athenians who were allowed to participate - their degree of whiteness was not an issue independent of that. They had a large class of immigrants and descendants of immigrants who were not allowed to participate. Most importantly, while there were a few questions settled by referendum where all citizens could vote, most were settled by randomly allotted juries. This meant there was little advantage to forming political parties around popular demagogues, or run well-funded propaganda campaigns. Athenian democracy got knocked down many times and came back every time, except the last. The second-to-last time, a bunch of immigrants had fought for the liberation and restoration of democracy, and some leaders argued forcefully that they should be awarded citizenship for this. But they didn't get it, the existing citizens voted against. The reason democracy finally failed was probably this. The Athenians knew (especially the poor) just how unusual and lucky they were to have political freedom, so they were fiercely protective of it - and didn't want to dilute it by sharing it. Eventually a large part of their society had so little stake in democracy that they didn't bother to restore it.
- anf 10y ago
  Doesn't that depend what the representatives then do? Also, what about federal judges? None of those are democratically elected, and they get to interpret all the laws in ways that have great consequence. Hence, America's government is a little more complicated than "democracy", although some parts of it are surely "democratic" (e.g. the house of reps).
  - dpark 10y ago
    > Doesn't that depend what the representatives then do? No. If you democratically elect terrible representatives who eat puppies, it's still democratic. > Also, what about federal judges? None of those are democratically elected, and they get to interpret all the laws in ways that have great consequence. You don't have to elect every government official for it to be a representative democracy. Democracy means that the ultimate power is vested in the people. If you elect representatives who appoint judges, the judges are still appointed by the power of the people. > Hence, America's government is a little more complicated than "democracy", although some parts of it are surely "democratic" (e.g. the house of reps). No government is simple. America is very clearly not a direct democracy, nor are all officials elected, but it is still a democracy.
- geggam 10y ago
  The law of the land is the constitution. A Republic is a land of laws. A democracy is a land of majority rule. Democracy is a tyranny of majority. The founders did NOT want a democracy.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > A Republic is a land of laws. A republic is a land where political authority isn't formally heritable personal property (e.g., basically a not-monarchy), a republic can also (like the US) be a representative democracy. It can also be an authoritarian dictatorship. It can also be a direct democracy.
    - geggam 10y ago
      A republic bound by a constitution cannot be a democracy of any sort. The laws bind it. I suppose since the constitution is completely ignored you might have valid points.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        > A republic bound by a constitution cannot be a democracy of any sort. You clearly are using "democracy" in a very peculiar sense. If you narrowly define "democracy" as "lawless mob rule", then your statement is true, but that's not what the word democracy is generally used to mean when discussing political systems.
      - dpark 10y ago
        Even accepting your personal definition of "democracy" to mean "pure majority rule", constitutions typically have provisions for modifications by majority vote. So a being "bound by a constitution" does not eliminate majority rule.
        khattam 10y ago
        That definition is anything but personal and carries the history of the democratic system prevalent at the time the term was coined. Just because you decide to use the same term for everything now doesn't mean that the original definition is "personal".
brett40324 10y ago
Go to a town hall meeting - the local and state government level. Democracy is not just electoral process.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Why do people insist on calling the US a democracy ? Because it is designed as a (representative) democracy. Its also a federal republic whose constituent units are mostly-representative [but some with significant aspects of direct] democracies.
MOARDONGZPLZ 10y ago
off topic, but I keep seeing things in the format of "word^^^^^" and "bribe^H^H^H^H" things like that. In your case it seems to indicate sarcasm, but that doesn't always seem to be the case. Can someone fill me in?
- xnxn 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backspace#.5EH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backspace#.5EH
- beevai142 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backspace#.5EH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backspace#.5EH
riboflava 10y ago
It is a democracy. A Constitutional Republic is just one way of implementing a democracy, similar to how a constitutional monarchy is just one way of implementing a monarchy. Mob rule everyone votes on everything and even a majority by one decides everything is another (poor) way of implementing democracy.
- raoulduke 10y ago
  Sorry... your logic is flawed at least semantically. If a "constitutional monarchy is just one way of implementing a monarchy," then presumably a "Constitutional Republic is just one way of implementing a" republic. The only nexus between republic and democracy in this case would be the Constitutional Republican Guarantee clause. Since that has essentially never been adjudicated we can't know for certain whether - at least in Constitutional terms - a Republic does convey democratic rights.
arca_vorago 10y ago
I like to call it a Constitutional Democratic Republic.
kiba 10y ago
Do we need to have this conversation every time? They absolutely do represent you. What do you think the representatives doing when they're trying to fuel up the corporations in your district? They're representing your interests by making sure that the jobs stay where they are, just not the interest of the American people. The senators represent the state's interest, the representatives represent the district's interest.

by geggam 10y ago

dpark 10y ago

Because it is a democracy. When you democratically elect representatives, it's a democracy. If you elect incompetent, or corrupt, or evil representatives, it's still a democracy.

thinkdevcode 10y ago
While I see what you are saying, the OP to your post has it correct. You can say a republic is a bastardized form of democracy, but the reverse is not true. You can look at one of the few true democracies that has ever existed as an example - ancient Greece. Every citizen[1] could vote and put forward changes to laws or even create new laws (obviously with a majority vote). [1] A citizen was considered to be any person born of Greece, white and male.
- schoen 10y ago
  I think you're thinking of the Athenian democracy, because Greece wasn't politically unified at that time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy I doubt that the Athenians had the present-day concept of "white people". Wikipedia says that citizens "had to be descended from citizens", so maybe at least in a certain era nobody known to be descended from people coming from outside of Athens could be a citizen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy#Citizenship_in_Athens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy#Citizenship... Edit: looking at one of the references, it seems that there was a year when explicit citizenship lists were drawn up based on all free men who lived in Athens (maybe with some kind of ethnic exclusion at that time too?). From then on until Pericles, children could be added to the list if their fathers were on the list. After Pericles, children could be added to the list if their mothers and fathers were on the list.
- vintermann 10y ago
  First, it was Athens, not Greece as a whole. It was free, male descendants of Athenians who were allowed to participate - their degree of whiteness was not an issue independent of that. They had a large class of immigrants and descendants of immigrants who were not allowed to participate. Most importantly, while there were a few questions settled by referendum where all citizens could vote, most were settled by randomly allotted juries. This meant there was little advantage to forming political parties around popular demagogues, or run well-funded propaganda campaigns. Athenian democracy got knocked down many times and came back every time, except the last. The second-to-last time, a bunch of immigrants had fought for the liberation and restoration of democracy, and some leaders argued forcefully that they should be awarded citizenship for this. But they didn't get it, the existing citizens voted against. The reason democracy finally failed was probably this. The Athenians knew (especially the poor) just how unusual and lucky they were to have political freedom, so they were fiercely protective of it - and didn't want to dilute it by sharing it. Eventually a large part of their society had so little stake in democracy that they didn't bother to restore it.
anf 10y ago
Doesn't that depend what the representatives then do? Also, what about federal judges? None of those are democratically elected, and they get to interpret all the laws in ways that have great consequence. Hence, America's government is a little more complicated than "democracy", although some parts of it are surely "democratic" (e.g. the house of reps).
- dpark 10y ago
  > Doesn't that depend what the representatives then do? No. If you democratically elect terrible representatives who eat puppies, it's still democratic. > Also, what about federal judges? None of those are democratically elected, and they get to interpret all the laws in ways that have great consequence. You don't have to elect every government official for it to be a representative democracy. Democracy means that the ultimate power is vested in the people. If you elect representatives who appoint judges, the judges are still appointed by the power of the people. > Hence, America's government is a little more complicated than "democracy", although some parts of it are surely "democratic" (e.g. the house of reps). No government is simple. America is very clearly not a direct democracy, nor are all officials elected, but it is still a democracy.
geggam 10y ago
The law of the land is the constitution. A Republic is a land of laws. A democracy is a land of majority rule. Democracy is a tyranny of majority. The founders did NOT want a democracy.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > A Republic is a land of laws. A republic is a land where political authority isn't formally heritable personal property (e.g., basically a not-monarchy), a republic can also (like the US) be a representative democracy. It can also be an authoritarian dictatorship. It can also be a direct democracy.
  - geggam 10y ago
    A republic bound by a constitution cannot be a democracy of any sort. The laws bind it. I suppose since the constitution is completely ignored you might have valid points.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > A republic bound by a constitution cannot be a democracy of any sort. You clearly are using "democracy" in a very peculiar sense. If you narrowly define "democracy" as "lawless mob rule", then your statement is true, but that's not what the word democracy is generally used to mean when discussing political systems.
    - dpark 10y ago
      Even accepting your personal definition of "democracy" to mean "pure majority rule", constitutions typically have provisions for modifications by majority vote. So a being "bound by a constitution" does not eliminate majority rule.
      - khattam 10y ago
        That definition is anything but personal and carries the history of the democratic system prevalent at the time the term was coined. Just because you decide to use the same term for everything now doesn't mean that the original definition is "personal".

brett40324 10y ago

Go to a town hall meeting - the local and state government level. Democracy is not just electoral process.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> Why do people insist on calling the US a democracy ? Because it is designed as a (representative) democracy. Its also a federal republic whose constituent units are mostly-representative [but some with significant aspects of direct] democracies.

MOARDONGZPLZ 10y ago

off topic, but I keep seeing things in the format of "word^^^^^" and "bribe^H^H^H^H" things like that. In your case it seems to indicate sarcasm, but that doesn't always seem to be the case. Can someone fill me in?

xnxn 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backspace#.5EH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backspace#.5EH
beevai142 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backspace#.5EH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backspace#.5EH

riboflava 10y ago

It is a democracy. A Constitutional Republic is just one way of implementing a democracy, similar to how a constitutional monarchy is just one way of implementing a monarchy. Mob rule everyone votes on everything and even a majority by one decides everything is another (poor) way of implementing democracy.

raoulduke 10y ago
Sorry... your logic is flawed at least semantically. If a "constitutional monarchy is just one way of implementing a monarchy," then presumably a "Constitutional Republic is just one way of implementing a" republic. The only nexus between republic and democracy in this case would be the Constitutional Republican Guarantee clause. Since that has essentially never been adjudicated we can't know for certain whether - at least in Constitutional terms - a Republic does convey democratic rights.

arca_vorago 10y ago

I like to call it a Constitutional Democratic Republic.

kiba 10y ago

Do we need to have this conversation every time? They absolutely do represent you. What do you think the representatives doing when they're trying to fuel up the corporations in your district? They're representing your interests by making sure that the jobs stay where they are, just not the interest of the American people. The senators represent the state's interest, the representatives represent the district's interest.