4 ms·

The fact that African Americans, on average, might be significantly less likely to be creditworthy - is not racist per-sey, it's just a fact. But denying someo

The fact that African Americans, on average, might be significantly less likely to be creditworthy - is not racist per-sey, it's just a fact. But denying someone credit on the basis of their race is probably racist. Why? Because having 'black skin' does not make you less credit worthy. It's a correlating factor. In fact - the 'dangers of stereotypes' are exactly that: making prejudiced decisions based on race etc.. Creditworthiness should be established on the basis of your job, job type, income, education, history of making payments etc.. There's no way on earth it's moral or fair to deny credit because someone is black - in the same way it's ruthlessly unfair to convict someone of a crime because they are black and 'theoretically more likely to have committed crime'. I'd argue that this is the basis for the systematic racism that exists in the system, and that we have to get over. And I'm not a pro-PC guy - by far. I'm not even very cool with affirmative action. But we need to treat people as individuals, not stereotypes.

adrianN 10y ago
All the factors you listed are also just correlated with paying back a loan. You'd be hard pressed to find something truly causal, human brains are pretty complex.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  Having a job vs not having a job + savings is pretty close to 'causal' when it comes to determining the ability to pay back a loan :) Far, far more so than skin colour :) which is absolutely not causal. I agree with your point theoretically, but pragmatically ... not so much :)
  - adrianN 10y ago
    And a smart ML system would correspondingly put a lot more weight on those variables than on race.
    - jomamaxx 10y ago
      A smart ML system wouldn't put any weight on race. Because we know it's not causal. Also - it's probably illegal, and surely immoral.
      - ebfe 10y ago
        >Because we know it's not causal. How do we know that?
        jomamaxx 10y ago
        How do we know that skin-colour is not 'causative' to bad credit? Are you really asking that question?
        ebfe 10y ago
        Not skin color, but race, yes. We already know that there are genes that make certain races predisposed to certain types of behavior. [1] How do we know that no similar genes exist that influence creditworthy behavior? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_A
        jomamaxx 10y ago
        FYI - 'race' is a social construct that humans use which basically boils down to skin colour - not much more. In reality 'African American' or 'Black' should not be though of as a 'race' - rather, as an 'ethnic group' - which is a collection of behaviours, ideals, attitudes etc.. Tell me, what 'race' is Barack Obama? What 'race' is someone from Sudan wherein people look a mix of 'Middle Eastern' and 'African/Black'? What 'race' are most Mexicans who have both Aboriginal and European backgrounds? Genetically, obviously there are some differences beyond skin colour, but it's pretty impossible to pin down 'race' when talking about genes. The dude doing your credit score is not going a gene test. He's looking at the colour of your skin. It's insane to think that has anything to do with anything. If anything 'ethnic group' would be a better correlation, but that's an impossible thing to determine in America. It's also racist, and I don't mean this in a 'PC' left-wing sense. I mean it in the most basic sense. Which is why it's illegal.

adrianN 10y ago

All the factors you listed are also just correlated with paying back a loan. You'd be hard pressed to find something truly causal, human brains are pretty complex.

jomamaxx 10y ago
Having a job vs not having a job + savings is pretty close to 'causal' when it comes to determining the ability to pay back a loan :) Far, far more so than skin colour :) which is absolutely not causal. I agree with your point theoretically, but pragmatically ... not so much :)
- adrianN 10y ago
  And a smart ML system would correspondingly put a lot more weight on those variables than on race.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    A smart ML system wouldn't put any weight on race. Because we know it's not causal. Also - it's probably illegal, and surely immoral.
    - ebfe 10y ago
      >Because we know it's not causal. How do we know that?
      - jomamaxx 10y ago
        How do we know that skin-colour is not 'causative' to bad credit? Are you really asking that question?
        ebfe 10y ago
        Not skin color, but race, yes. We already know that there are genes that make certain races predisposed to certain types of behavior. [1] How do we know that no similar genes exist that influence creditworthy behavior? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_A
      - jomamaxx 10y ago
        FYI - 'race' is a social construct that humans use which basically boils down to skin colour - not much more. In reality 'African American' or 'Black' should not be though of as a 'race' - rather, as an 'ethnic group' - which is a collection of behaviours, ideals, attitudes etc.. Tell me, what 'race' is Barack Obama? What 'race' is someone from Sudan wherein people look a mix of 'Middle Eastern' and 'African/Black'? What 'race' are most Mexicans who have both Aboriginal and European backgrounds? Genetically, obviously there are some differences beyond skin colour, but it's pretty impossible to pin down 'race' when talking about genes. The dude doing your credit score is not going a gene test. He's looking at the colour of your skin. It's insane to think that has anything to do with anything. If anything 'ethnic group' would be a better correlation, but that's an impossible thing to determine in America. It's also racist, and I don't mean this in a 'PC' left-wing sense. I mean it in the most basic sense. Which is why it's illegal.