5 ms·

Considering the great amount of statistical research the author has done, it's surprising that he's drawn some dreadful conclusions. He seems to be saying that

by whack 10y ago

Considering the great amount of statistical research the author has done, it's surprising that he's drawn some dreadful conclusions. He seems to be saying that in the face of incomplete/ambiguous information, people should form judgements on other people on the basis of racial/gender/physical stereotypes. The problem with stereotypes isn't that they have no basis in reality. The problem with stereotypes is that they are just as inaccurate as they are accurate. The problem with stereotypes is that they stunt the potential of tens/hundreds of millions of people. Do we really want to live in a world where women are denied managerial/executive jobs, because of stereotypes that they can't control their emotions? One where African Americans are rejected from job applications, because of whatever derogatory stereotypes people hold against them? One where Jews are routinely judged as being immoral and obsessed with money? One where Southerners are socially shunned for being uncultured racist bigots? One where women refuse to date engineers because they're socially incompetent boring dorks? One that bans Gays from being teachers because they're likely to be child molesters? If you're someone who thinks that making life-changing judgements about individuals on the basis of stereotypes is perfectly fine, the early/mid 1900s are right up your alley. Thankfully, most of us have come to recognize how damaging and morally repugnant such a system is. I would hate to be judged and discriminated against on the basis of stereotypes, and hence, I refrain from doing the same to others. Ultimately, that's the courtesy that we as a society have decided we should extend to one another.

Paul_S 10y ago
You just described the reality I live in. Where do you live? I want to move there.
jasode 10y ago
>He seems to be saying that in the face of incomplete/ambiguous information, people should form judgements on other people on the basis of racial/gender/physical stereotypes. It looks like "He seems...people should..." is overlaying a prescription that Lee Jussim didn't write anywhere in the essay. Instead, he explicitly wrote the opposite: "Nothing in this essay should dissuade anyone from continuing efforts to combat discrimination."
- whack 10y ago
  The following sentence from the essay is what I found very concerning: "If people relied on their stereotypes more or less rationally, they would rely on them to inform judgments when they had little or no definitive information, but ignore them when they had definitive information." The implication seems to be that as a rational person, in the absence of definitive information, you should discriminate against people on the basis of stereotypes.
  - Klockan 10y ago
    He doesn't say that you should discriminate, just that you probably shouldn't buy a dildo to a guy.
  - jasode 10y ago
    Your finger is too quick on the trigger with the word "should" and therefore attributing malice to the author without justification. Are you sure you're not _stereotyping_ authors that have written about "stereotypes" as being closet racists instructing all of us to discriminate?!? That would be so meta. In any case, in the paragraph immediately before your extracted quote, he wrote: "To deal with the complexity, ..." He's saying that in absence of information we humans conduct a Bayesian prior. It's a cognitive coping mechanism. The excerpt of text that bothered you is just describing how our brains work. He's not prescribing any of the racist actions you listed. The distinction seems very clear.[1] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact%E2%80%93value_distinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact%E2%80%93value_distinction
    - whack 10y ago
      You have either misread or misunderstood the section I quoted. No, the author didn't just say that "people make decisions on the basis of stereotypes." He literally said that the rational thing for a person to do in the absence of perfect information, is to make decisions on the basis of stereotypes. If you are going to claim that "the rational thing to do is XYZ," that is certainly crossing the line into an endorsement.
sevenless 10y ago
But you're cherry-picking stereotypes that are mostly incorrect (and look outright archaic). Whereas Lee Jussim (for example) has found that most stereotypes are mostly accurate. http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~jussim/unbearable%20accuracy%20of%20stereotypes.pdf http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~jussim/unbearable%20accuracy%20o... Interestingly, stereotypes based on political party membership are consistently inaccurate. As the Kahneman quote I posted elsewhere shows, the reality is that resistance to reasoning using certain valid stereotypes is an ethical position, based on a desire to build a better society. It has costs in terms of sub-optimal decision making. In a democratic society, we should acknowledge this, rather than falsely and naively claiming that stereotypes are false. > I would hate to be judged and discriminated against on the basis of stereotypes, and hence, I refrain from doing the same to others. Other people are not obliged to make bad decisions because of your feelings. They should make the ethical decisions they feel are right. Statistical models are quantitative reasoning based on stereotypes. Every time you get a credit report or an insurance policy, that's based on nothing but stereotypes: just legally permissible ones, built into mathematical models. 25 year old men who buy red cars have a certain accident rate, therefore you're going to be charged for that rate.
- whack 10y ago
  > But you're cherry-picking stereotypes that are mostly incorrect (and look outright archaic). Whereas Lee Jussim (for example) has found that most stereotypes are mostly accurate. So your position is that if the stereotypes about Women/Blacks/Jews/Southerners/Gays were mostly accurate, it would be ok to discriminate against those groups on the basis of those stereotypes? In my previous post, I never claimed that stereotypes were false. I stated that discrimination on the basis of stereotypes were damaging to society, and morally repugnant. My feelings are not relevant, but the fact that you seem to be in favor of stereotypes, because you belong to a group that won't be strongly affected by it, is not relevant either. In order to form a defensible moral position, you have to look at it from the perspective of someone who doesn't know which group he will belong to (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance). And it's hard to imagine any external rational person forming the conclusion that he would like to live in a society that I described earlier.
Klockan 10y ago
If you had to bet on if a random Asian or a random black person would get the highest SAT score, what would you do? You would of course bet on the Asian because the odds are so much better. This is not discrimination. Discrimination would be if you still bet that the Asian would get a higher score even after I informed you that both of them got exactly the same score last time they took the test. That would mean that you somehow think that the Asian guy is better even if I already proved that they are equal.
- cbr 10y ago
  There's a lot of variability between people taking the SAT twice. So if you initially expect that A will score higher than B, then learn they were selected for having received the same score on one round of the test, your guess for A on another round of testing should still be a bit higher than for B.
steanne 10y ago
> One where women refuse to date engineers because they're socially incompetent boring dorks? ...one where women and engineers are considered to be two separate categories?
- Klockan 10y ago
  No, (s)he is saying that women are socially incompetent boring dorks and thus refuses to date engineers of both genders.
  - steanne 10y ago
    Oh, you're right. My bad!

by whack 10y ago

Paul_S 10y ago

You just described the reality I live in. Where do you live? I want to move there.

jasode 10y ago

>He seems to be saying that in the face of incomplete/ambiguous information, people should form judgements on other people on the basis of racial/gender/physical stereotypes. It looks like "He seems...people should..." is overlaying a prescription that Lee Jussim didn't write anywhere in the essay. Instead, he explicitly wrote the opposite: "Nothing in this essay should dissuade anyone from continuing efforts to combat discrimination."

whack 10y ago
The following sentence from the essay is what I found very concerning: "If people relied on their stereotypes more or less rationally, they would rely on them to inform judgments when they had little or no definitive information, but ignore them when they had definitive information." The implication seems to be that as a rational person, in the absence of definitive information, you should discriminate against people on the basis of stereotypes.
- Klockan 10y ago
  He doesn't say that you should discriminate, just that you probably shouldn't buy a dildo to a guy.
- jasode 10y ago
  Your finger is too quick on the trigger with the word "should" and therefore attributing malice to the author without justification. Are you sure you're not _stereotyping_ authors that have written about "stereotypes" as being closet racists instructing all of us to discriminate?!? That would be so meta. In any case, in the paragraph immediately before your extracted quote, he wrote: "To deal with the complexity, ..." He's saying that in absence of information we humans conduct a Bayesian prior. It's a cognitive coping mechanism. The excerpt of text that bothered you is just describing how our brains work. He's not prescribing any of the racist actions you listed. The distinction seems very clear.[1] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact%E2%80%93value_distinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact%E2%80%93value_distinction
  - whack 10y ago
    You have either misread or misunderstood the section I quoted. No, the author didn't just say that "people make decisions on the basis of stereotypes." He literally said that the rational thing for a person to do in the absence of perfect information, is to make decisions on the basis of stereotypes. If you are going to claim that "the rational thing to do is XYZ," that is certainly crossing the line into an endorsement.

sevenless 10y ago

But you're cherry-picking stereotypes that are mostly incorrect (and look outright archaic). Whereas Lee Jussim (for example) has found that most stereotypes are mostly accurate. http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~jussim/unbearable%20accuracy%20of%20stereotypes.pdf http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~jussim/unbearable%20accuracy%20o... Interestingly, stereotypes based on political party membership are consistently inaccurate. As the Kahneman quote I posted elsewhere shows, the reality is that resistance to reasoning using certain valid stereotypes is an ethical position, based on a desire to build a better society. It has costs in terms of sub-optimal decision making. In a democratic society, we should acknowledge this, rather than falsely and naively claiming that stereotypes are false. > I would hate to be judged and discriminated against on the basis of stereotypes, and hence, I refrain from doing the same to others. Other people are not obliged to make bad decisions because of your feelings. They should make the ethical decisions they feel are right. Statistical models are quantitative reasoning based on stereotypes. Every time you get a credit report or an insurance policy, that's based on nothing but stereotypes: just legally permissible ones, built into mathematical models. 25 year old men who buy red cars have a certain accident rate, therefore you're going to be charged for that rate.

whack 10y ago
> But you're cherry-picking stereotypes that are mostly incorrect (and look outright archaic). Whereas Lee Jussim (for example) has found that most stereotypes are mostly accurate. So your position is that if the stereotypes about Women/Blacks/Jews/Southerners/Gays were mostly accurate, it would be ok to discriminate against those groups on the basis of those stereotypes? In my previous post, I never claimed that stereotypes were false. I stated that discrimination on the basis of stereotypes were damaging to society, and morally repugnant. My feelings are not relevant, but the fact that you seem to be in favor of stereotypes, because you belong to a group that won't be strongly affected by it, is not relevant either. In order to form a defensible moral position, you have to look at it from the perspective of someone who doesn't know which group he will belong to (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance). And it's hard to imagine any external rational person forming the conclusion that he would like to live in a society that I described earlier.

Klockan 10y ago

If you had to bet on if a random Asian or a random black person would get the highest SAT score, what would you do? You would of course bet on the Asian because the odds are so much better. This is not discrimination. Discrimination would be if you still bet that the Asian would get a higher score even after I informed you that both of them got exactly the same score last time they took the test. That would mean that you somehow think that the Asian guy is better even if I already proved that they are equal.

cbr 10y ago
There's a lot of variability between people taking the SAT twice. So if you initially expect that A will score higher than B, then learn they were selected for having received the same score on one round of the test, your guess for A on another round of testing should still be a bit higher than for B.

steanne 10y ago

> One where women refuse to date engineers because they're socially incompetent boring dorks? ...one where women and engineers are considered to be two separate categories?

Klockan 10y ago
No, (s)he is saying that women are socially incompetent boring dorks and thus refuses to date engineers of both genders.
- steanne 10y ago
  Oh, you're right. My bad!