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>The police were way out of line and completely disregarded the accused's rights. First things first, the victim has rights too. Moreover, if the police were

>The police were way out of line and completely disregarded the accused's rights. First things first, the victim has rights too. Moreover, if the police were called to respond to a domestic disturbance/dispute and come to find a women who was obviously beaten, but likely to afraid to give a statement, the police were not exactly out of line, they made a decision to secure the video evidence of the crime before the accused had the opportunity to destroy it. Sure the evidence was suppressed under the 4th Amendment/illegal search and seizure/fruit of the poisons tree doctrine, but I could easily see (and have seen) Judge's arrive at different decisions in similar cases, for example drug cases where the defendant was actively flushing the evidence. You can't exactly blame the officers for not having a crystal ball, knowing what Judge this case would ultimately go before, and how the Judge would rule. Nevertheless, you can't exactly feel bad for the defendant, even if you think his rights were violated, because the Courts worked exactly as they are supposed to and upheld his rights resulting in 47 felony counts essentially going away and him being able to plea out to 3 years probation, 1 year domestic violence courses and 25 hours community service. Keep in mind the prosecutors could have easily still gone to trial and convicted him without the video.

belovedeagle 10y ago
> First things first, the victim has rights too. This is a pointless and inane sentiment. Which of the victim's rights were violated here? US law, for better or for worse, recognizes no right to justice, nor protection. [Edit to add:] Of course the reported crime is completely unjust in an ethical sense; that's why letting someone get away with it is difficult but effective. We can't say, "oh, well we can't enforce the 4A law in the really important cases, so we'll just let people get away with petty theft in these cases but not any serious crimes", because the police, just like us, don't really care about petty theft all that much. If you think that we should avoid this solution with truly heinous crimes like rape and murder (and, in practice, I think you might find fewer successful 4A challenges in those cases), then you sure as hell better let "mere" domestic abusers successfully defend their rights. I realize that's a horrifying sentiment, but again, the more horrifying this is, the more effective it is and the more it tends to prove my point. The officers may not have a crystal ball, but the implications of Fourth Amendment case law is crystal clear on this point. I've not heard any claims that the defendant was sitting in front of the computer actively deleting the video, so "flushing the evidence" is not a relevant comparison. If he had been then the outcome should be different. Otherwise, we could conclude that because any digital evidence is more easily destroyed than physical evidence then the Fourth Amendment just doesn't apply to digital evidence. I have no evidence to suggest that that conclusion is not every bit as absurd as it seems on its face. The police shouldn't be worried about how the judge will rule, toeing the line as closely as they can; but they should instead adopt a conservative approach ensuring that they actually follow the law in all cases to avoid this exact scenario. Therefore the police were absolutely out of line, because their actions were likely the direct and sole cause the defendant was not convicted. I don't feel bad for the defendant, not even a little bit—why would I? He's probably getting away with something he shouldn't get away with, because the police just couldn't do their damn job. His rights were vindicated, as they should be. If the prosecutors could have convicted him without the video, then I hope they would have. If on account of his status they chose not to do so, then I would agree with the unspoken sentiment of preferential treatment, and I would condemn that. However, I tend to take the evidence before us at face value: the prosecution offered a lousy plea deal, so they probably didn't think they could do significantly better. Now, I won't deny that it's possibly thanks to a good lawyer and the prospect of a sympathetic jury that the prospects for a conviction were so low, but it was first and foremost due to an unlawful search by the police. Unless you'd like to abolish the rights to counsel and jury trials, I think we just have to deal with the other aspects as they are.
- will_brown 10y ago
  >Which of the victim's rights were violated here? By definition victims of crimes have had their rights violated. >I've not heard any claims that the defendant was sitting in front of the computer actively deleting the video, so "flushing the evidence" is not a relevant comparison. The 4th Amendment is not nearly as crystal clear as you say, it helps to read some case law on point. For example you will quickly find in the drug cases it is more a matter of the ability/likelihood the evidence could/will be destroy that is the litmus test (for a starting point read cases on the "knock and announce rule") not actually being in the process of destroying the evidence. Just thinking logically, officers would never be in a position to make a determination someone is behind closed doors flushing drugs or in front of their computer deleting files. And as we all know police can enter a dwelling without a warrant based on "exigent circumstances". >If the prosecutors could have convicted him without the video, then I hope they would have. It is not up to the prosecutors, the Defendant has the right to take a plea. >He's probably getting away with something he shouldn't get away with, because the police just couldn't do their damn job. Actually the Defendant did not get away with it, though I suppose you can make up your own definition, getting away with it in a criminal law context implies a dismissal, no info, nolle prosequi, or not guilty. Instead the Defendant took a plea to the charges, was placed on probation, violated probation, his probation was revoked and he was sentenced to 12 months jail for the underlying crime. Not to mention he still has to face the new charges on the new crime. I think you are trying to argue that but for the officers searching/seizing the video evidence in violation of the 4th Amendment, and subsequent suppression, that the officers could have legally obtained that video evidence with a warrant and used it. Possible, but very unlikely, in fact what likely would have happened is exactly what the officers were concerned about, the evidence would have been destroyed. Then what? The prosecutor would have been in the same boat as the prosecutor was in anyway, no video evidence.
  - belovedeagle 10y ago
    > By definition victims of crimes have had their rights violated. You haven't actually made an argument here. We have already established that I don't agree that this is a true statement, and you've said nothing which could change my mind... Can you provide the definition(s) you're thinking of which establish that crime victims have had the correct kind of right violated? In context, we're looking for rights of the kind which we would need to consider when judging the correctness of the post you responded to; i.e., rights which somehow should influence the legal procedures to which the accused is subject. My edit above was intended to reflect that I do think that the victim has suffered some kind of immoral and illegal behavior, but I do not agree that this implies, a priori, that the victim has suffered a breach of rights.

belovedeagle 10y ago

> First things first, the victim has rights too. This is a pointless and inane sentiment. Which of the victim's rights were violated here? US law, for better or for worse, recognizes no right to justice, nor protection. [Edit to add:] Of course the reported crime is completely unjust in an ethical sense; that's why letting someone get away with it is difficult but effective. We can't say, "oh, well we can't enforce the 4A law in the really important cases, so we'll just let people get away with petty theft in these cases but not any serious crimes", because the police, just like us, don't really care about petty theft all that much. If you think that we should avoid this solution with truly heinous crimes like rape and murder (and, in practice, I think you might find fewer successful 4A challenges in those cases), then you sure as hell better let "mere" domestic abusers successfully defend their rights. I realize that's a horrifying sentiment, but again, the more horrifying this is, the more effective it is and the more it tends to prove my point. The officers may not have a crystal ball, but the implications of Fourth Amendment case law is crystal clear on this point. I've not heard any claims that the defendant was sitting in front of the computer actively deleting the video, so "flushing the evidence" is not a relevant comparison. If he had been then the outcome should be different. Otherwise, we could conclude that because any digital evidence is more easily destroyed than physical evidence then the Fourth Amendment just doesn't apply to digital evidence. I have no evidence to suggest that that conclusion is not every bit as absurd as it seems on its face. The police shouldn't be worried about how the judge will rule, toeing the line as closely as they can; but they should instead adopt a conservative approach ensuring that they actually follow the law in all cases to avoid this exact scenario. Therefore the police were absolutely out of line, because their actions were likely the direct and sole cause the defendant was not convicted. I don't feel bad for the defendant, not even a little bit—why would I? He's probably getting away with something he shouldn't get away with, because the police just couldn't do their damn job. His rights were vindicated, as they should be. If the prosecutors could have convicted him without the video, then I hope they would have. If on account of his status they chose not to do so, then I would agree with the unspoken sentiment of preferential treatment, and I would condemn that. However, I tend to take the evidence before us at face value: the prosecution offered a lousy plea deal, so they probably didn't think they could do significantly better. Now, I won't deny that it's possibly thanks to a good lawyer and the prospect of a sympathetic jury that the prospects for a conviction were so low, but it was first and foremost due to an unlawful search by the police. Unless you'd like to abolish the rights to counsel and jury trials, I think we just have to deal with the other aspects as they are.

will_brown 10y ago
>Which of the victim's rights were violated here? By definition victims of crimes have had their rights violated. >I've not heard any claims that the defendant was sitting in front of the computer actively deleting the video, so "flushing the evidence" is not a relevant comparison. The 4th Amendment is not nearly as crystal clear as you say, it helps to read some case law on point. For example you will quickly find in the drug cases it is more a matter of the ability/likelihood the evidence could/will be destroy that is the litmus test (for a starting point read cases on the "knock and announce rule") not actually being in the process of destroying the evidence. Just thinking logically, officers would never be in a position to make a determination someone is behind closed doors flushing drugs or in front of their computer deleting files. And as we all know police can enter a dwelling without a warrant based on "exigent circumstances". >If the prosecutors could have convicted him without the video, then I hope they would have. It is not up to the prosecutors, the Defendant has the right to take a plea. >He's probably getting away with something he shouldn't get away with, because the police just couldn't do their damn job. Actually the Defendant did not get away with it, though I suppose you can make up your own definition, getting away with it in a criminal law context implies a dismissal, no info, nolle prosequi, or not guilty. Instead the Defendant took a plea to the charges, was placed on probation, violated probation, his probation was revoked and he was sentenced to 12 months jail for the underlying crime. Not to mention he still has to face the new charges on the new crime. I think you are trying to argue that but for the officers searching/seizing the video evidence in violation of the 4th Amendment, and subsequent suppression, that the officers could have legally obtained that video evidence with a warrant and used it. Possible, but very unlikely, in fact what likely would have happened is exactly what the officers were concerned about, the evidence would have been destroyed. Then what? The prosecutor would have been in the same boat as the prosecutor was in anyway, no video evidence.
- belovedeagle 10y ago
  > By definition victims of crimes have had their rights violated. You haven't actually made an argument here. We have already established that I don't agree that this is a true statement, and you've said nothing which could change my mind... Can you provide the definition(s) you're thinking of which establish that crime victims have had the correct kind of right violated? In context, we're looking for rights of the kind which we would need to consider when judging the correctness of the post you responded to; i.e., rights which somehow should influence the legal procedures to which the accused is subject. My edit above was intended to reflect that I do think that the victim has suffered some kind of immoral and illegal behavior, but I do not agree that this implies, a priori, that the victim has suffered a breach of rights.