6 ms·

Any Canadian developer will tell you the problem is the abysmal pay that Canadian companies offer. I love my country and would love nothing more than to stay h

by theGimp 10y ago

Any Canadian developer will tell you the problem is the abysmal pay that Canadian companies offer. I love my country and would love nothing more than to stay here, but when moving south of the border means a 50% bump, it's hard to stay in Canada. It doesn't help that most Canadian CEOs talk about the issue as if they're entitled to Canadian graduates working for them without making any attempt at matching US pay packages.

bobdole1234 10y ago
50%? I'm just shy of 4x.
- theGimp 10y ago
  Maybe I'll get there someday :-) I should have mentioned I'm still a student. I'm sure that for a senior developer, the difference is significantly larger.
  - keithwhor 10y ago
    You will. If you're at UW and/or have a competitive portfolio you can expect entry-level US (read: Bay Area) offers to be about 2x Canadian ones in terms total comp if you ignore exchange rate (more if you include it). If you're good, that's going to scale to about 3-5x what you get in Canada after a few years. And don't let anybody get on you about the cost of living. You can live pretty inexpensively in San Francisco, as you can in any city, if you're willing to make some sacrifices (roommates, transit).
- pyre 10y ago
  ... with people talking about offers for mid-level developers in Toronto / Vancouver being in the $70k - $110k range, are you claiming that you can pull in $280k - $440k for a software development position? If not, then I would think that this pay difference converges the more experience you have, no?
  - acchow 10y ago
    with the exchange rate maybe. I have talented friends in Toronto who tell me it pretty much caps at $100k CAD. Whereas at a comparable talent and experience level, the range in the Bay Area is $175-300k USD = $240-400k CAD. And this excluding the outliers who got lucky and joined pre-IPO.
    - pyre 10y ago
      The qualifier there is "in the Bay Area". I get the impression you could easily replace "Canada/Toronto/Vancouver" with "Midwest" and be mostly accurate. Also, while this: > $175-300k USD = $240-400k CAD is accurate, it fluctuates. Back in 2008 CAD and USD were at par with CAD actually exceeding USD for periods. Also, unless you're living in Canada and getting paid in USD (or hoarding cash to return to living in Canada) the exchange rate shouldn't really mean much in terms of your career choices. It makes more sense to measure those salaries against local cost of living / quality of living / etc.
      - acchow 10y ago
        > the exchange rate shouldn't really mean much What do you mean by this? After taxes, rent, food and other living costs, you're keeping almost 50% of your compensation to spend on whatever you want. How does purchasing power not matter? How much does a car cost in Canada? An iPhone? How much does a flight to Japan cost or a dinner in Tokyo? Of course the exchange rate is relevant even when you're not "hoarding" cash and have no intentions to return to Canada.
        pyre 10y ago
        What you really want to be doing is comparing local purchasing power to local purchasing power, unless you're looking into cross-currency transactions. Sure local purchasing power can be affected by exchange rate (e.g. things that depend on imports), but that's indirect and is a bit more complicated than doing a direct currency conversion on your yearly (pre-tax) salary.
ommunist 10y ago
Hehe, I remember that bold claim accmpanying my first Canadian visa. "Your permission to enter Canada is privilege and not a right, and can be revoked at any moment". I doubt this attitude changed. New Zealand is way less snobbish.
- serge2k 10y ago
  How is that snobbish? How is it bold? It's a fact. You have no right to be in Canada. I have no right to be in the US. That's why I try to behave myself.
  - ommunist 10y ago
    Look at this planet from space. Do you see any state borders? I do not.
    - derefr 10y ago
      "Natural rights" are mostly a thing insofar as a mob of people that sees person A taking away what they consider a "natural right" of person B, will attack person A. Thus, if the populist sentiment of the people of some land-mass is that you don't have a right to be there with them, then you don't, no matter what abstract arguments you might give to the contrary. Your rights only extend as far as others' willingness to enforce them for you.
sdm 10y ago
> Any Canadian developer will tell you the problem is the abysmal pay that Canadian companies offer. Companies can't pay money they don't have. In my experience as a Canadian founder, Canadian companies are just poorer. We'd love to pay more but then we'd be bankrupt.
- yazaddaruvala 10y ago
  I think this is part of the joke. Most US "companies" which hire tech talent, aren't looking to scale up "businesses" which are cashflow positive. These "startups" are effectively bankrupt relying entirely on their current runways and their bi-annual VC injections. Like they said in the video, Canadians for better or worse are inherently more risk averse than their American counter parts. Even more appropriately the entrepreneurs which stay in Canada vs move on faith to the bay, are tautologically less risk averse. To look at this from a different perspective, Canada may just be living with a sustainable tech sector. Its like watching/envying your neighbors as they come home from their third sunny vacation, this year, to their over sized house and driveway with two Mercedes. But that envy would quickly disappear if you ever got a chance to look at their books. You'd see they just took out a second mortgage on the house, when they could barely pay for the first one, so they could continue to finance their cars. Meanwhile, they still have so much additional debt accruing it really should be criminal. I really wouldn't know though.. I'm a risk averse Canadian, whose just sorta hoping I've found a sweet spot on the risk-reward line.
  - thedufer 10y ago
    A large portion of the high wages are coming out of sustainable companies, so I don't think you can blame this on startups. Netflix, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, etc. are all outpaying Canada's tech sector by huge margins yet somehow make a profit.
    - yazaddaruvala 10y ago
      Yeah, don't get me wrong I also prefer to not be living in a bubble. Hopefully everything continues as is.
Tiktaalik 10y ago
I'd be ok with taking the "hometown discount" and being being paid much less if it was cheap to live here in Canada, but it's not. The cost of living is dramatically increasing and housing hyperinflation has made made Vancouver and Toronto totally unviable places to start a family for almost everyone. Unsurprisingly plenty of people with in demand skills that travel are looking at the exit or are already gone.

by theGimp 10y ago

bobdole1234 10y ago

50%? I'm just shy of 4x.

theGimp 10y ago
Maybe I'll get there someday :-) I should have mentioned I'm still a student. I'm sure that for a senior developer, the difference is significantly larger.
- keithwhor 10y ago
  You will. If you're at UW and/or have a competitive portfolio you can expect entry-level US (read: Bay Area) offers to be about 2x Canadian ones in terms total comp if you ignore exchange rate (more if you include it). If you're good, that's going to scale to about 3-5x what you get in Canada after a few years. And don't let anybody get on you about the cost of living. You can live pretty inexpensively in San Francisco, as you can in any city, if you're willing to make some sacrifices (roommates, transit).
pyre 10y ago
... with people talking about offers for mid-level developers in Toronto / Vancouver being in the $70k - $110k range, are you claiming that you can pull in $280k - $440k for a software development position? If not, then I would think that this pay difference converges the more experience you have, no?
- acchow 10y ago
  with the exchange rate maybe. I have talented friends in Toronto who tell me it pretty much caps at $100k CAD. Whereas at a comparable talent and experience level, the range in the Bay Area is $175-300k USD = $240-400k CAD. And this excluding the outliers who got lucky and joined pre-IPO.
  - pyre 10y ago
    The qualifier there is "in the Bay Area". I get the impression you could easily replace "Canada/Toronto/Vancouver" with "Midwest" and be mostly accurate. Also, while this: > $175-300k USD = $240-400k CAD is accurate, it fluctuates. Back in 2008 CAD and USD were at par with CAD actually exceeding USD for periods. Also, unless you're living in Canada and getting paid in USD (or hoarding cash to return to living in Canada) the exchange rate shouldn't really mean much in terms of your career choices. It makes more sense to measure those salaries against local cost of living / quality of living / etc.
    - acchow 10y ago
      > the exchange rate shouldn't really mean much What do you mean by this? After taxes, rent, food and other living costs, you're keeping almost 50% of your compensation to spend on whatever you want. How does purchasing power not matter? How much does a car cost in Canada? An iPhone? How much does a flight to Japan cost or a dinner in Tokyo? Of course the exchange rate is relevant even when you're not "hoarding" cash and have no intentions to return to Canada.
      - pyre 10y ago
        What you really want to be doing is comparing local purchasing power to local purchasing power, unless you're looking into cross-currency transactions. Sure local purchasing power can be affected by exchange rate (e.g. things that depend on imports), but that's indirect and is a bit more complicated than doing a direct currency conversion on your yearly (pre-tax) salary.

ommunist 10y ago

Hehe, I remember that bold claim accmpanying my first Canadian visa. "Your permission to enter Canada is privilege and not a right, and can be revoked at any moment". I doubt this attitude changed. New Zealand is way less snobbish.

serge2k 10y ago
How is that snobbish? How is it bold? It's a fact. You have no right to be in Canada. I have no right to be in the US. That's why I try to behave myself.
- ommunist 10y ago
  Look at this planet from space. Do you see any state borders? I do not.
  - derefr 10y ago
    "Natural rights" are mostly a thing insofar as a mob of people that sees person A taking away what they consider a "natural right" of person B, will attack person A. Thus, if the populist sentiment of the people of some land-mass is that you don't have a right to be there with them, then you don't, no matter what abstract arguments you might give to the contrary. Your rights only extend as far as others' willingness to enforce them for you.

sdm 10y ago

> Any Canadian developer will tell you the problem is the abysmal pay that Canadian companies offer. Companies can't pay money they don't have. In my experience as a Canadian founder, Canadian companies are just poorer. We'd love to pay more but then we'd be bankrupt.

yazaddaruvala 10y ago
I think this is part of the joke. Most US "companies" which hire tech talent, aren't looking to scale up "businesses" which are cashflow positive. These "startups" are effectively bankrupt relying entirely on their current runways and their bi-annual VC injections. Like they said in the video, Canadians for better or worse are inherently more risk averse than their American counter parts. Even more appropriately the entrepreneurs which stay in Canada vs move on faith to the bay, are tautologically less risk averse. To look at this from a different perspective, Canada may just be living with a sustainable tech sector. Its like watching/envying your neighbors as they come home from their third sunny vacation, this year, to their over sized house and driveway with two Mercedes. But that envy would quickly disappear if you ever got a chance to look at their books. You'd see they just took out a second mortgage on the house, when they could barely pay for the first one, so they could continue to finance their cars. Meanwhile, they still have so much additional debt accruing it really should be criminal. I really wouldn't know though.. I'm a risk averse Canadian, whose just sorta hoping I've found a sweet spot on the risk-reward line.
- thedufer 10y ago
  A large portion of the high wages are coming out of sustainable companies, so I don't think you can blame this on startups. Netflix, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, etc. are all outpaying Canada's tech sector by huge margins yet somehow make a profit.
  - yazaddaruvala 10y ago
    Yeah, don't get me wrong I also prefer to not be living in a bubble. Hopefully everything continues as is.

Tiktaalik 10y ago

I'd be ok with taking the "hometown discount" and being being paid much less if it was cheap to live here in Canada, but it's not. The cost of living is dramatically increasing and housing hyperinflation has made made Vancouver and Toronto totally unviable places to start a family for almost everyone. Unsurprisingly plenty of people with in demand skills that travel are looking at the exit or are already gone.