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> chokes Firefox and Chrome are getting a hell of a pass if you're going to say web browsing is "confined to an application." Well browsing in Firefox is confi

> chokes Firefox and Chrome are getting a hell of a pass if you're going to say web browsing is "confined to an application." Well browsing in Firefox is confined to Firefox, not sure what you want to say. The fact that Firefox isn't perfect in every way shouldn't mean that Windows should go 100 mph evil with its telemetry. > is of the most benign type that Apple, Google If it's not straight keylogger still doesn't mean it's anywhere near acceptable. And it's fallacious to think whatever Apple and Google does on their platforms should have any bearing when judging what Microsoft does on its. There's been pattern of derailment whenever Windows is mention and it should stop. > and nearly all 3rd party apps have actually been collecting (enabled via TOS agreements and practicality) Lack of _informed_ consent and the fact that telemetry as part of OS is ever present (and not segregated to third party software) is what makes the difference. Flaws in third party applications are still reproachable, but they aren't the subject of discussion here and hopefully they are replaceable and not installed and turned on by default.

KirinDave 10y ago
> Well browsing in Firefox is confined to Firefox, not sure what you want to say. The fact that Firefox isn't perfect in every way shouldn't mean that Windows should go 100 mph evil with its telemetry. Browsers are an incredibly sensitive and important part of people's day-to-day use of computers. In terms of time spent, most people overwhelmingly spend their time there, and even do work of other types via that system. > If it's not straight keylogger still doesn't mean it's anywhere near acceptable Indeed! But we can't even have a conversation about what the "is" in fact is! We're using incredibly incendiary and obviously incorrect language to avoid even the pretext of a rational examination of the data. I was just downmodded to -2 for posting a link to Ars's examination of the telemetry via local proxy and a discussion about what it looks like at the byte level. People are that uninterested in actually understanding the technical details here. Can you name a specific aspect of the telemetry that you don't like that you can't turn off in SP1? If so, please let me know. I am happy to gather data to consider escalating concerns both as part of my professional responsibility and as part of my connections to many smart and placed people at MS. > Lack of _informed_ consent and the fact that telemetry as part of OS is ever present (and not segregated to third party software) is what makes the difference. OSX, iOS, Android, and Ubuntu all contain core telemetry. They have similar EULAs to Windows for the customer facing product. Heck, this entire conversation got kicked off from the article I linked over the more exclusive opt-in for Insider program builds! The clause isn't as strong in the public EULA, last time I checked (IANAL, so please feel free to correct me if you're better informed there). I am all for a rational, calm, informed discussion about the pros and cons of telemetry. I wrestle with the "right" thing to do daily as part of the products I help build, design and ship. I very much want to have that conversation, but shady authors looking for cheap ways to buy relevance are writing clickbait to obfuscate the real discussion to make incrementally more dollars via impressions. If you're looking for deceit, the handful of authors cashing in on this meme are not a bad place to start.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- RaleyField 10y ago
  > downmodded HN is going to hell just as proggit did and digg before it. If anyone that downvoted me bothered to explain why they did it that would be great. Nobody has proven anything I wrote wrong, so apparently I'm getting downvoted for sentiment. > Can you name a specific aspect of the telemetry that you don't like that you can't turn off in SP1? Haven't upgraded to SP1 yet. If there's still typing telemetry thing without any concrete official explanation whatsover of how it works then that's still a problem. > Ubuntu Has its own problems, agreed. Thankfully they've corrected some of their behavior in 16.04, unfortunately crash reports are still getting transmitter if you don't disable it. > shady authors Obviously take anything Vaughan-Nichols writes with a big grain of salt. > I wrestle with the "right" thing In my mind it's very simple - if users have reasonable expectancy of privacy then any features should be turned on only after informed consent has been obtained.
  - KirinDave 10y ago
    > Haven't upgraded to SP1 yet. If there's still typing telemetry thing without any concrete official explanation whatsover of how it works then that's still a problem There isn't any evidence of typing telemetry. I haven't seen any technical assessment that suggests otherwise, just click bait assumptions it is there. The only place keystrokes get sent that we know of is the Cortana field for web searches, and you can turn that off even pre-SP1.
    - RaleyField 10y ago
      > typing telemetry Have you missed big fat "Send Microsoft info about how I write to help us improve typing and writing in the future" in the privacy section of settings? > The only place keystrokes get sent that we know We don't know how it works. I've searched and there's only baseless speculation (hello) that it's benign but there aren't any official documents detailing how it works that would dispel many people's reservations. > The only place keystrokes get sent that we know of is the Cortana field for web searches, and you can turn that off even pre-SP1. How do you KNOW that? The setting mentioned above doesn't mention Cortana, one would expect the setting mention Cortana if it only pertained to that subsystem.

KirinDave 10y ago

> Well browsing in Firefox is confined to Firefox, not sure what you want to say. The fact that Firefox isn't perfect in every way shouldn't mean that Windows should go 100 mph evil with its telemetry. Browsers are an incredibly sensitive and important part of people's day-to-day use of computers. In terms of time spent, most people overwhelmingly spend their time there, and even do work of other types via that system. > If it's not straight keylogger still doesn't mean it's anywhere near acceptable Indeed! But we can't even have a conversation about what the "is" in fact is! We're using incredibly incendiary and obviously incorrect language to avoid even the pretext of a rational examination of the data. I was just downmodded to -2 for posting a link to Ars's examination of the telemetry via local proxy and a discussion about what it looks like at the byte level. People are that uninterested in actually understanding the technical details here. Can you name a specific aspect of the telemetry that you don't like that you can't turn off in SP1? If so, please let me know. I am happy to gather data to consider escalating concerns both as part of my professional responsibility and as part of my connections to many smart and placed people at MS. > Lack of _informed_ consent and the fact that telemetry as part of OS is ever present (and not segregated to third party software) is what makes the difference. OSX, iOS, Android, and Ubuntu all contain core telemetry. They have similar EULAs to Windows for the customer facing product. Heck, this entire conversation got kicked off from the article I linked over the more exclusive opt-in for Insider program builds! The clause isn't as strong in the public EULA, last time I checked (IANAL, so please feel free to correct me if you're better informed there). I am all for a rational, calm, informed discussion about the pros and cons of telemetry. I wrestle with the "right" thing to do daily as part of the products I help build, design and ship. I very much want to have that conversation, but shady authors looking for cheap ways to buy relevance are writing clickbait to obfuscate the real discussion to make incrementally more dollars via impressions. If you're looking for deceit, the handful of authors cashing in on this meme are not a bad place to start.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
RaleyField 10y ago
> downmodded HN is going to hell just as proggit did and digg before it. If anyone that downvoted me bothered to explain why they did it that would be great. Nobody has proven anything I wrote wrong, so apparently I'm getting downvoted for sentiment. > Can you name a specific aspect of the telemetry that you don't like that you can't turn off in SP1? Haven't upgraded to SP1 yet. If there's still typing telemetry thing without any concrete official explanation whatsover of how it works then that's still a problem. > Ubuntu Has its own problems, agreed. Thankfully they've corrected some of their behavior in 16.04, unfortunately crash reports are still getting transmitter if you don't disable it. > shady authors Obviously take anything Vaughan-Nichols writes with a big grain of salt. > I wrestle with the "right" thing In my mind it's very simple - if users have reasonable expectancy of privacy then any features should be turned on only after informed consent has been obtained.
- KirinDave 10y ago
  > Haven't upgraded to SP1 yet. If there's still typing telemetry thing without any concrete official explanation whatsover of how it works then that's still a problem There isn't any evidence of typing telemetry. I haven't seen any technical assessment that suggests otherwise, just click bait assumptions it is there. The only place keystrokes get sent that we know of is the Cortana field for web searches, and you can turn that off even pre-SP1.
  - RaleyField 10y ago
    > typing telemetry Have you missed big fat "Send Microsoft info about how I write to help us improve typing and writing in the future" in the privacy section of settings? > The only place keystrokes get sent that we know We don't know how it works. I've searched and there's only baseless speculation (hello) that it's benign but there aren't any official documents detailing how it works that would dispel many people's reservations. > The only place keystrokes get sent that we know of is the Cortana field for web searches, and you can turn that off even pre-SP1. How do you KNOW that? The setting mentioned above doesn't mention Cortana, one would expect the setting mention Cortana if it only pertained to that subsystem.