4 ms·

I'm tired of hearing the ideological position that government interference is absolutely bad. I live in a city-state where government housing and policies and s

I'm tired of hearing the ideological position that government interference is absolutely bad. I live in a city-state where government housing and policies and strict zoning at once makes housing affordable for the middle and lower class insulated from fluctuating rents, and protects public spaces from overdevelopment in a land-scarce island.

bufordsharkley 10y ago
I'm curious to here more about how this policy works. I would be skeptical that the claim that a land-scarce island should be wary of overdevelopment-- I would think sprawl would be more dangerous (and density would be welcomed). In practice, strict zoning tends to create sprawl-- when density is outlawed, the displaced people need to live somewhere... and thus the footprint of cities grows wider and wider.
- jhanschoo 10y ago
  Sorry for the late response. The city in question is Singapore. The homeless population is extremely tiny in Singapore, but the homeless choose to live in public spaces and parks near urban centers due to the proximity of services. When I say zoning, very little space is zoned as low-density in Singapore. Where there are buildings, they are almost high-density. However, the government owns a large proportion of the land, and this preserves and protects common pool resources like parks from being developed on.
xapata 10y ago
You're right in one sense -- all government (in)actions should be considered, not an "interference" per se, but a choice made with at least some understanding of the consequences on society. As for the problem of interfering with the market... One issue is that a well-functioning market depends on the idea that price captures all information. This is central to the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding individuals to arrive at the correct level of supply to optimally satisfy demand. When government actions set prices, the market participants no longer receive the correct information. In turn, the market will arrive either at too much supply (and waste) or too little supply (and unsatisfied demand). In the case of housing, the government usually takes action to set prices for some homes lower than what market forces would arrive at. Therefore, the market will under-supply and some folks who want housing will not have it. The answer is to either allow prices to move without intervention or for the government to subsidize the supply of housing.
- tbihl 10y ago
  I agree with you on all the theory, but I'd add that if you take the subsidy option, you'll forever have to clamp down harder and harder as the effects of the distortions amplify. I'm actually open to the idea that the government option could work; I just find it entirely antithetical to the ethos of the US.
- Terr_ 10y ago
  Right, and there are also other externalities the government "captures" and turns into inputs for homo economicus. For example, the "cost" of dumping toxins in a river, or assassinating a competitor's CEO.
pif 10y ago
Which city-state are you talking about, if I may ask?
- eigenvector 10y ago
  Most likely Singapore: http://www.adb.org/sites/default/files/publication/181599/adbi-wp559.pdf http://www.adb.org/sites/default/files/publication/181599/ad...
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    Singapore's house prices have rocketed over the last few years and are getting less and less affordable as a consequence of ZIRP, immigration and dirty Chinese/Indonesian money looking for a safe haven. The government the subsidies are graded depending upon whether you're newly weds, new immigrants who chose citizenship, age, if you have children, income, etc.
    - Noseshine 10y ago
      Question - not arguing, I don't know the subject well: Are house prices relevant for this discussion? According to Wikipedia [0] 80% of the resident population live in Public housing in managed by the Housing and Development Board (HDB). Wouldn't house prices only be of concern to the other 20%? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore
      - EliRivers 10y ago
        Of that 80% who live in HDB flats, the ownership rate is not zero percent - it's 95% [0]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore#Ownership_and_rental https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore#Ow...

bufordsharkley 10y ago

I'm curious to here more about how this policy works. I would be skeptical that the claim that a land-scarce island should be wary of overdevelopment-- I would think sprawl would be more dangerous (and density would be welcomed). In practice, strict zoning tends to create sprawl-- when density is outlawed, the displaced people need to live somewhere... and thus the footprint of cities grows wider and wider.

jhanschoo 10y ago
Sorry for the late response. The city in question is Singapore. The homeless population is extremely tiny in Singapore, but the homeless choose to live in public spaces and parks near urban centers due to the proximity of services. When I say zoning, very little space is zoned as low-density in Singapore. Where there are buildings, they are almost high-density. However, the government owns a large proportion of the land, and this preserves and protects common pool resources like parks from being developed on.

xapata 10y ago

You're right in one sense -- all government (in)actions should be considered, not an "interference" per se, but a choice made with at least some understanding of the consequences on society. As for the problem of interfering with the market... One issue is that a well-functioning market depends on the idea that price captures all information. This is central to the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding individuals to arrive at the correct level of supply to optimally satisfy demand. When government actions set prices, the market participants no longer receive the correct information. In turn, the market will arrive either at too much supply (and waste) or too little supply (and unsatisfied demand). In the case of housing, the government usually takes action to set prices for some homes lower than what market forces would arrive at. Therefore, the market will under-supply and some folks who want housing will not have it. The answer is to either allow prices to move without intervention or for the government to subsidize the supply of housing.

tbihl 10y ago
I agree with you on all the theory, but I'd add that if you take the subsidy option, you'll forever have to clamp down harder and harder as the effects of the distortions amplify. I'm actually open to the idea that the government option could work; I just find it entirely antithetical to the ethos of the US.
Terr_ 10y ago
Right, and there are also other externalities the government "captures" and turns into inputs for homo economicus. For example, the "cost" of dumping toxins in a river, or assassinating a competitor's CEO.

pif 10y ago

Which city-state are you talking about, if I may ask?

eigenvector 10y ago
Most likely Singapore: http://www.adb.org/sites/default/files/publication/181599/adbi-wp559.pdf http://www.adb.org/sites/default/files/publication/181599/ad...
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  Singapore's house prices have rocketed over the last few years and are getting less and less affordable as a consequence of ZIRP, immigration and dirty Chinese/Indonesian money looking for a safe haven. The government the subsidies are graded depending upon whether you're newly weds, new immigrants who chose citizenship, age, if you have children, income, etc.
  - Noseshine 10y ago
    Question - not arguing, I don't know the subject well: Are house prices relevant for this discussion? According to Wikipedia [0] 80% of the resident population live in Public housing in managed by the Housing and Development Board (HDB). Wouldn't house prices only be of concern to the other 20%? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore
    - EliRivers 10y ago
      Of that 80% who live in HDB flats, the ownership rate is not zero percent - it's 95% [0]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore#Ownership_and_rental https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore#Ow...