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I'm a native Texan, which I point out solely to rebut the assertion that all--or even many--Texans are in favor of the death penalty, and I very much oppose the

I'm a native Texan, which I point out solely to rebut the assertion that all--or even many--Texans are in favor of the death penalty, and I very much oppose the death penalty for reasons exactly such as this. Maybe this man committed a crime; it sure seems like he did. But maybe he didn't. Or maybe he didn't in the way that the state, or the psychiatrist, or the eyewitnesses claim he did. That's the problem with the death penalty: There are vanishingly few situations where we can be 100%, absolutely clear on whether a person did something that warrants permanently removing that person from existence. We are a nation of laws and we are also a nation of fallible human beings. If we could be completely certain, then perhaps I would be OK with the permanence of death. But we can't, so we shouldn't be killing criminals in the name of the people or the state. Because what happens if we are wrong? What happens if we are wrong 138 times[0]? Why have we forgotten that "[i]t is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer?" 0 - http://tcadp.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/TXDPFactSheet01-11.pdf http://tcadp.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/TXDPFactSheet01-...

ythl 10y ago
> There are vanishingly few situations where we can be 100%, absolutely clear on whether a person did something that warrants permanently removing that person from existence. So would you say that the vast majority of murder convictions leave at least a little room for doubt?
- techsupporter 10y ago
  Yes. "Beyond all reasonable doubt" is fine for throwing someone in jail and putting the key all but permanently out of reach. But I think that, as a society, we must retain the ability to say "oh shit we fucked up very much here is the door we are very sorry please take this huge sack of cash along with our sincere apologies" if or when we discover that our legal system made a massive error. In this day and age, were an exoneration to happen, I would also mandate that the state put up billboards in the person's home town and where the crime allegedly took place and run Internet ads and do lots of press interviews to get it out as widely as possible that someone has been exonerated.
  - wtbob 10y ago
    > "Beyond all reasonable doubt" is fine for throwing someone in jail and putting the key all but permanently out of reach. But I think that, as a society, we must retain the ability to say "oh shit we fucked up very much here is the door we are very sorry please take this huge sack of cash along with our sincere apologies" if or when we discover that our legal system made a massive error. You'll still never return lost years and decades of someone's life any more than you could return life to a dead man. You can't restore the fractured relationships, undo the pain of imprisonment. Honestly, I think a quick death (not the insane decades-of-imprisonment-followed-by-ritualistic-execution we have now) is far more humane than life in prison.
    - allendoerfer 10y ago
      > Honestly, I think a quick death (not the insane decades-of-imprisonment-followed-by-ritualistic-execution we have now) is far more humane than life in prison. I think many would agree, that both systems are broken. The fix for the first is easier: Just stop it.
    - dalke 10y ago
      Then stop treating prisoners so poorly. What I read of US prisons sounds inhumane, so your last sentence comes across to me as comparing two different NaNs. Also, many countries have banned life imprisonment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment#Reform_or_abolition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment#Reform_or_ab... .
    - techsupporter 10y ago
      > You'll still never return lost years and decades of someone's life any more than you could return life to a dead man. You can't restore the fractured relationships, undo the pain of imprisonment. No, but you also can't make a completely perfect criminal justice system. It is infinitely more possible to free a person from prison, pay that person many millions of dollars (or do other things to make the remainder of that person's life very easy), and otherwise let that person go back to having some kind of life...than it is to raise the dead. > Honestly, I think a quick death (not the insane decades-of-imprisonment-followed-by-ritualistic-execution we have now) is far more humane than life in prison. Perhaps it is for the actually-guilty. But for the actually-innocent, I do not agree because they will always have the hope and possibility of someday being freed again.
intopieces 10y ago
>I'm a native Texan, which I point out solely to rebut the assertion that all--or even many--Texans are in favor of the death penalty When it comes to an action as permanent as killing a person, disapproval without preventative action (i.e., abolition) is tacit approval. So long as Texas keeps executing people, I don't see what difference it makes how many Texans are in favor of it.
- bhickey 10y ago
  What would you like techsupporter to do? Drive down to the prisons and personally tear down the bars? "So long as Texas keeps executing people, I don't see what difference it makes how many [Americans] are in favor of it."
  - intopieces 10y ago
    >What would you like techsupporter to do? Drive down to the prisons and personally tear down the bars? The perceived inability of one does not excuse the lack of action by the many, especially if the techsupporter's assertion is true -- that not many Texans support the death penalty. I suspect that, given California couldn't even replace it with life imprisonment (it failed 52-48 with Prop 34 in 2012), the considerably more conservative state of Texas has at least a simple majority support for the death penalty. >"So long as Texas keeps executing people, I don't see what difference it makes how many [Americans] are in favor of it." I agree wholeheartedly.
  - jdietrich 10y ago
    Honest question: how many people are actively protesting against the death penalty in Texas? A cursory search shows one annual march and protests on the day of executions, with turnouts in the low tens. From the outside looking in, it seems that most Texans who oppose the death penalty are either indifferent or resigned to the issue. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I find very little evidence of a credible abolition movement. Without sustained political pressure, disapproval counts for very little.
    - alex_young 10y ago
steve19 10y ago
For the record I am STRONGLY opposed to the death penalty (for moral/religious reasons). That said, I wonder if you live in the same Texas I visit each year. The vast majority of Texans support the death penalty. A University of Texas (Austin) poll last year showed 49% of Texans support the death penalty. 26% somewhat support. That's almost 20 million Texans. While just 19% are opposed (of which just 9% strongly oppose). https://texaspolitics.utexas.edu/set/support-death-penalty-february-2015 https://texaspolitics.utexas.edu/set/support-death-penalty-f...
morbotron2000 10y ago
1) According to the best available evidence, a sizable majority of Texans favor the death penalty. 2) If you strongly oppose the death penalty, can you provide examples of what you've done to reduce it? You've already noted that you chose to live in a way that provides financial support for the death penalty.. what are you doing to offset that? What organizations do you donate to, or volunteer with? What have you done beyond write a comment on HN? If the answer is 'nothing', then you find the death penalty disagreeable, but you are, on net, supporting it.
- techsupporter 10y ago
  As to your first point, I said "many," not most, dislike the death penalty. Even at its most pessimistic, 19% strongly opposed, that's 4 million voters who are opposed. I think that qualifies as many, though perhaps it is a distinction without a difference for you. I might should not have said it. On your second, I don't know how my personal actions are relevant here, but I will recite them for you because I am on a rebutting-of-presumptions mode today: - You said I "chose to live in a way" that supports the death penalty. I should point out that though I am native to Texas, I no longer live in Texas. I even reincorporated my small consulting business in another state, away from Texas. - I have provided volunteer support to the Innocence Project of Texas (I decline to specify when or what kind because I am being anonymous here). - When I lived in State Senator Jane Nelson's district, I know that I had a reputation among her staff for writing several anti-death penalty letters and being one of the most vociferous. I know this because I became friends with a former staffer of hers and that person told me. - I have participated in and volunteered for the political campaigns of candidates who are endorsed by the Texas Moratorium Network, a group opposed to the death penalty. Is that sufficient? Have you packed your bags to move to Texas and vote against proponents of the death penalty yet? My vote is missing, perhaps you can take up the slack for me.
  - morbotron2000 10y ago
    No. You are now lying. You said that 'not many' support it, but a majority do. Go re-read your original post. I have not read beyond your first paragraph, because you clearly demonstrated that you are EXTREMELY DISHONEST in it, and there is zero value in attempting conversation with a proven liar.
aaron695 10y ago
> There are vanishingly few situations where we can be 100%, absolutely clear on whether a person did something that warrants permanently removing that person from existence. This is a little strawperson. If you support the death penalty you also know innocent people will die from the death penalty. But you support it because you believe overall less people will be removed from existence. IE it's a deterrent. IE less criminals escape and go on the commit again. IE it costs less so more money goes to save lives in hospitals. [please don't rehash why this are faulty arguments, that's OT to the point I'm making]

ythl 10y ago

> There are vanishingly few situations where we can be 100%, absolutely clear on whether a person did something that warrants permanently removing that person from existence. So would you say that the vast majority of murder convictions leave at least a little room for doubt?

techsupporter 10y ago
Yes. "Beyond all reasonable doubt" is fine for throwing someone in jail and putting the key all but permanently out of reach. But I think that, as a society, we must retain the ability to say "oh shit we fucked up very much here is the door we are very sorry please take this huge sack of cash along with our sincere apologies" if or when we discover that our legal system made a massive error. In this day and age, were an exoneration to happen, I would also mandate that the state put up billboards in the person's home town and where the crime allegedly took place and run Internet ads and do lots of press interviews to get it out as widely as possible that someone has been exonerated.
- wtbob 10y ago
  > "Beyond all reasonable doubt" is fine for throwing someone in jail and putting the key all but permanently out of reach. But I think that, as a society, we must retain the ability to say "oh shit we fucked up very much here is the door we are very sorry please take this huge sack of cash along with our sincere apologies" if or when we discover that our legal system made a massive error. You'll still never return lost years and decades of someone's life any more than you could return life to a dead man. You can't restore the fractured relationships, undo the pain of imprisonment. Honestly, I think a quick death (not the insane decades-of-imprisonment-followed-by-ritualistic-execution we have now) is far more humane than life in prison.
  - allendoerfer 10y ago
    > Honestly, I think a quick death (not the insane decades-of-imprisonment-followed-by-ritualistic-execution we have now) is far more humane than life in prison. I think many would agree, that both systems are broken. The fix for the first is easier: Just stop it.
  - dalke 10y ago
    Then stop treating prisoners so poorly. What I read of US prisons sounds inhumane, so your last sentence comes across to me as comparing two different NaNs. Also, many countries have banned life imprisonment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment#Reform_or_abolition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment#Reform_or_ab... .
  - techsupporter 10y ago
    > You'll still never return lost years and decades of someone's life any more than you could return life to a dead man. You can't restore the fractured relationships, undo the pain of imprisonment. No, but you also can't make a completely perfect criminal justice system. It is infinitely more possible to free a person from prison, pay that person many millions of dollars (or do other things to make the remainder of that person's life very easy), and otherwise let that person go back to having some kind of life...than it is to raise the dead. > Honestly, I think a quick death (not the insane decades-of-imprisonment-followed-by-ritualistic-execution we have now) is far more humane than life in prison. Perhaps it is for the actually-guilty. But for the actually-innocent, I do not agree because they will always have the hope and possibility of someday being freed again.

intopieces 10y ago

>I'm a native Texan, which I point out solely to rebut the assertion that all--or even many--Texans are in favor of the death penalty When it comes to an action as permanent as killing a person, disapproval without preventative action (i.e., abolition) is tacit approval. So long as Texas keeps executing people, I don't see what difference it makes how many Texans are in favor of it.

bhickey 10y ago
What would you like techsupporter to do? Drive down to the prisons and personally tear down the bars? "So long as Texas keeps executing people, I don't see what difference it makes how many [Americans] are in favor of it."
- intopieces 10y ago
  >What would you like techsupporter to do? Drive down to the prisons and personally tear down the bars? The perceived inability of one does not excuse the lack of action by the many, especially if the techsupporter's assertion is true -- that not many Texans support the death penalty. I suspect that, given California couldn't even replace it with life imprisonment (it failed 52-48 with Prop 34 in 2012), the considerably more conservative state of Texas has at least a simple majority support for the death penalty. >"So long as Texas keeps executing people, I don't see what difference it makes how many [Americans] are in favor of it." I agree wholeheartedly.
- jdietrich 10y ago
  Honest question: how many people are actively protesting against the death penalty in Texas? A cursory search shows one annual march and protests on the day of executions, with turnouts in the low tens. From the outside looking in, it seems that most Texans who oppose the death penalty are either indifferent or resigned to the issue. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I find very little evidence of a credible abolition movement. Without sustained political pressure, disapproval counts for very little.
  - alex_young 10y ago

steve19 10y ago

For the record I am STRONGLY opposed to the death penalty (for moral/religious reasons). That said, I wonder if you live in the same Texas I visit each year. The vast majority of Texans support the death penalty. A University of Texas (Austin) poll last year showed 49% of Texans support the death penalty. 26% somewhat support. That's almost 20 million Texans. While just 19% are opposed (of which just 9% strongly oppose). https://texaspolitics.utexas.edu/set/support-death-penalty-february-2015 https://texaspolitics.utexas.edu/set/support-death-penalty-f...

morbotron2000 10y ago

1) According to the best available evidence, a sizable majority of Texans favor the death penalty. 2) If you strongly oppose the death penalty, can you provide examples of what you've done to reduce it? You've already noted that you chose to live in a way that provides financial support for the death penalty.. what are you doing to offset that? What organizations do you donate to, or volunteer with? What have you done beyond write a comment on HN? If the answer is 'nothing', then you find the death penalty disagreeable, but you are, on net, supporting it.

techsupporter 10y ago
As to your first point, I said "many," not most, dislike the death penalty. Even at its most pessimistic, 19% strongly opposed, that's 4 million voters who are opposed. I think that qualifies as many, though perhaps it is a distinction without a difference for you. I might should not have said it. On your second, I don't know how my personal actions are relevant here, but I will recite them for you because I am on a rebutting-of-presumptions mode today: - You said I "chose to live in a way" that supports the death penalty. I should point out that though I am native to Texas, I no longer live in Texas. I even reincorporated my small consulting business in another state, away from Texas. - I have provided volunteer support to the Innocence Project of Texas (I decline to specify when or what kind because I am being anonymous here). - When I lived in State Senator Jane Nelson's district, I know that I had a reputation among her staff for writing several anti-death penalty letters and being one of the most vociferous. I know this because I became friends with a former staffer of hers and that person told me. - I have participated in and volunteered for the political campaigns of candidates who are endorsed by the Texas Moratorium Network, a group opposed to the death penalty. Is that sufficient? Have you packed your bags to move to Texas and vote against proponents of the death penalty yet? My vote is missing, perhaps you can take up the slack for me.
- morbotron2000 10y ago
  No. You are now lying. You said that 'not many' support it, but a majority do. Go re-read your original post. I have not read beyond your first paragraph, because you clearly demonstrated that you are EXTREMELY DISHONEST in it, and there is zero value in attempting conversation with a proven liar.

aaron695 10y ago

> There are vanishingly few situations where we can be 100%, absolutely clear on whether a person did something that warrants permanently removing that person from existence. This is a little strawperson. If you support the death penalty you also know innocent people will die from the death penalty. But you support it because you believe overall less people will be removed from existence. IE it's a deterrent. IE less criminals escape and go on the commit again. IE it costs less so more money goes to save lives in hospitals. [please don't rehash why this are faulty arguments, that's OT to the point I'm making]