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By "with names like yours", we agree she means Latinos, right? Well, no. When I read the article the first time, I presumed she was talking about Black non-Hi

by nkurz 10y ago

By "with names like yours", we agree she means Latinos, right? Well, no. When I read the article the first time, I presumed she was talking about Black non-Hispanic Americans with Africanized names. Re-reading, I see that this wasn't stated either, but I still read "some defendants" as contrasting rather amplifying the previous use of "a Hispanic defendant". It's possible you are right, but it's far from "pretty obvious". The Bronx is sufficiently multicultural that I'm sure there are groups I've scarcely heard of who have widely held prejudices against groups that I'd never even guess. I think you, and I, and probably everyone who wasn't in that courtroom are reading things into the account based on our own preconceptions. Racism is one explanation, and likely at least partially present, but I don't think there is any way to know how from this short account how much of a role it plays. For example, what race do you picture the "racist" judge as? Would it alter your verdict of racism if she herself was Black, or Asian, or Hispanic, or Jewish? What about the court officers laughing at the "young man" with his pants around his ankles? I don't know, but I wouldn't be startled if both the humiliators and humiliated belt-less defendant were all of African origin, or Spanish speaking, or both. And what about the "85-pound drug addict who was arrested because she was in a park after hours" or the "pale, slight, and visibly anxious" woman there for a protective order? Is there any reason to presume that judge's lack of sympathy for either of these two was because race? As the old joke goes, does it count as racial prejudice you hate all minorities equally? So no, it's not "obvious racism", unless we start by assuming that racism is the only reason that one person would mistreat another. I mean, doesn't proof of "racism" at least require showing that the judge treats members of one race better than those of another? Is there any evidence of this in the story? If not, why do we call it "racism" rather than "prejudice", or just "hate"?

nkurz 10y ago
One young man’s arraignment was particularly unnerving: The ADA noted that the defendant’s “street name” is “Guns and Butter,” and then proceeded to refer to the young man not as “the defendant” or by his given name, but rather as “Mr. Guns and Butter.” The judge made a thinly veiled attempt to hide her giggles, while the court officers made no attempt whatsoever to subdue their outright laughter. So I just looked up "Guns and Butter" to try to understand why someone might have this nickname. To my surprise, the phrase is originally a reference to a macroeconomic model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_versus_butter_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_versus_butter_model The guns versus butter model is an example of a simple production–possibility frontier. It demonstrates the relationship between a nation's investment in defense and civilian goods. Or maybe a 1970's horn-heavy Progressive Rock band: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrmPQreXgbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrmPQreXgbA Or 1980's Australian Power Pop / Political Punk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPsTisG7-JA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPsTisG7-JA And 2000's American String Band Resurgence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCKHbYEDiNg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCKHbYEDiNg But I'm guessing this scene from Baby Boy is probably a more likely direct reference, but who really knows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga8o9eepj5s&t=40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga8o9eepj5s&t=40 This then gets remixed by a number of Hiphop DJ's. I think I like this one best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OboHRT5-Ss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OboHRT5-Ss It's even got Youtube parodies at this point, complete with reference to Gangnam Style as an example of "Butter": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXHHlURvYg&t=105 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXHHlURvYg&t=105 It's also the name of a radical leftist radio show on Pacifica: http://www.gunsandbutter.org/about.htm http://www.gunsandbutter.org/about.htm I wonder if any of the people giggling in the courtroom knew any of these references, or whether they were just laughing at the guy. I wonder if they would have cared. I wonder if the defendant himself even knew why people called him "Guns and Butter". I hope so.
jrochkind1 10y ago
> Well, no. When I read the article the first time, I presumed she was talking about Black non-Hispanic Americans with Africanized names. Okay, still racist. > For example, what race do you picture the "racist" judge as? Would it alter your verdict of racism if she herself was Black, or Asian, or Hispanic, or Jewish? Not much. > As the old joke goes, does it count as racial prejudice you hate all minorities equally? Yes.
kafkaesq 10y ago
Would it alter your verdict of racism if she herself was Black, or Asian, or Hispanic, or Jewish? Not at all. I mean, doesn't proof of "racism" at least require showing that the judge treats members of one race better than those of another? Is there any evidence of this in the story? If not, why do we call it "racism" rather than "prejudice", or just "hate"? Whether she's certifiably "racist" or not is a red herring. The point is that she's obviously biased against defendants based on family origin and language background (and incredibly condescending, to boot). Which are both attributes manifestly incompatible with her job description.
- nkurz 10y ago
  >> Would it alter your verdict of racism if she herself >> was Black, or Asian, or Hispanic, or Jewish? > > Not at all. Could you walk me through that? I don't see how an accusation of "racism" can have meaning unless we care about the races of the parties involved. For example, if I were to declare that it is obvious that the judge acts they way she does because she is "sexist", wouldn't you want to know the sexes of the judge and the defendants before deciding whether the accusation is true? And at least one example of how the judge treated a male differently than a female? Perhaps you feel that "racism" and "prejudice" are synonyms at this point, and that it's pedantic to differentiate them? > Whether she's certifiably "racist" or not is a red herring. Yes, and if it's a red herring --- a false clue designed to distract and mislead the reader --- why should we let the accusation stand just because the subject has other shortcomings? How does this improve the situation for future defendants? Sure, the judge probably holds racial prejudices, and these probably influence some of her behavior in the courtroom. But I'd wager though that there are many other factors involved, and one of them (economic prejudice, overwork and burn-out, ignorance and stupidity, simple lack of compassion) is playing a larger role, and that a correct diagnosis is the first step to improvement. I'm not excusing the judge's behavior, I'm claiming that putting false blame on racism is a distraction from the real issues (whatever they might be). Edit: Here's a couple other articles about the author, Judge Shelley Chapman: http://hlrecord.org/2014/02/feminists-take-on-debt/ http://hlrecord.org/2014/02/feminists-take-on-debt/ http://mashable.com/2016/02/09/bronx-girls-explorers-trial http://mashable.com/2016/02/09/bronx-girls-explorers-trial These don't contradict anything anyone here has said, but may offer additional insight into her views.

by nkurz 10y ago

nkurz 10y ago

One young man’s arraignment was particularly unnerving: The ADA noted that the defendant’s “street name” is “Guns and Butter,” and then proceeded to refer to the young man not as “the defendant” or by his given name, but rather as “Mr. Guns and Butter.” The judge made a thinly veiled attempt to hide her giggles, while the court officers made no attempt whatsoever to subdue their outright laughter. So I just looked up "Guns and Butter" to try to understand why someone might have this nickname. To my surprise, the phrase is originally a reference to a macroeconomic model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_versus_butter_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_versus_butter_model The guns versus butter model is an example of a simple production–possibility frontier. It demonstrates the relationship between a nation's investment in defense and civilian goods. Or maybe a 1970's horn-heavy Progressive Rock band: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrmPQreXgbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrmPQreXgbA Or 1980's Australian Power Pop / Political Punk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPsTisG7-JA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPsTisG7-JA And 2000's American String Band Resurgence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCKHbYEDiNg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCKHbYEDiNg But I'm guessing this scene from Baby Boy is probably a more likely direct reference, but who really knows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga8o9eepj5s&t=40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga8o9eepj5s&t=40 This then gets remixed by a number of Hiphop DJ's. I think I like this one best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OboHRT5-Ss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OboHRT5-Ss It's even got Youtube parodies at this point, complete with reference to Gangnam Style as an example of "Butter": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXHHlURvYg&t=105 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXHHlURvYg&t=105 It's also the name of a radical leftist radio show on Pacifica: http://www.gunsandbutter.org/about.htm http://www.gunsandbutter.org/about.htm I wonder if any of the people giggling in the courtroom knew any of these references, or whether they were just laughing at the guy. I wonder if they would have cared. I wonder if the defendant himself even knew why people called him "Guns and Butter". I hope so.

jrochkind1 10y ago

> Well, no. When I read the article the first time, I presumed she was talking about Black non-Hispanic Americans with Africanized names. Okay, still racist. > For example, what race do you picture the "racist" judge as? Would it alter your verdict of racism if she herself was Black, or Asian, or Hispanic, or Jewish? Not much. > As the old joke goes, does it count as racial prejudice you hate all minorities equally? Yes.

kafkaesq 10y ago

Would it alter your verdict of racism if she herself was Black, or Asian, or Hispanic, or Jewish? Not at all. I mean, doesn't proof of "racism" at least require showing that the judge treats members of one race better than those of another? Is there any evidence of this in the story? If not, why do we call it "racism" rather than "prejudice", or just "hate"? Whether she's certifiably "racist" or not is a red herring. The point is that she's obviously biased against defendants based on family origin and language background (and incredibly condescending, to boot). Which are both attributes manifestly incompatible with her job description.

nkurz 10y ago
>> Would it alter your verdict of racism if she herself >> was Black, or Asian, or Hispanic, or Jewish? > > Not at all. Could you walk me through that? I don't see how an accusation of "racism" can have meaning unless we care about the races of the parties involved. For example, if I were to declare that it is obvious that the judge acts they way she does because she is "sexist", wouldn't you want to know the sexes of the judge and the defendants before deciding whether the accusation is true? And at least one example of how the judge treated a male differently than a female? Perhaps you feel that "racism" and "prejudice" are synonyms at this point, and that it's pedantic to differentiate them? > Whether she's certifiably "racist" or not is a red herring. Yes, and if it's a red herring --- a false clue designed to distract and mislead the reader --- why should we let the accusation stand just because the subject has other shortcomings? How does this improve the situation for future defendants? Sure, the judge probably holds racial prejudices, and these probably influence some of her behavior in the courtroom. But I'd wager though that there are many other factors involved, and one of them (economic prejudice, overwork and burn-out, ignorance and stupidity, simple lack of compassion) is playing a larger role, and that a correct diagnosis is the first step to improvement. I'm not excusing the judge's behavior, I'm claiming that putting false blame on racism is a distraction from the real issues (whatever they might be). Edit: Here's a couple other articles about the author, Judge Shelley Chapman: http://hlrecord.org/2014/02/feminists-take-on-debt/ http://hlrecord.org/2014/02/feminists-take-on-debt/ http://mashable.com/2016/02/09/bronx-girls-explorers-trial http://mashable.com/2016/02/09/bronx-girls-explorers-trial These don't contradict anything anyone here has said, but may offer additional insight into her views.