4 ms·

I've known more than one person who tried something else and went back to software. The unfortunate and not-so-easy-to-admit issue is that for many, perhaps eve

by beagle3 10y ago

I've known more than one person who tried something else and went back to software. The unfortunate and not-so-easy-to-admit issue is that for many, perhaps even the vast majority of, software engineers have (on a 10-15 years forward looking basis) a global maximum of salary optimization in the software field. Also, most of us have no idea how easy (except intellectually) our job is compared to other jobs which are more demanding physically and emotionally. On a 30-year forward looking basis, we appear to be fucked, though - the only 50-year old software guys I know are either self employed, or have been working at the same place for 20 years. Even "stable" employees who only switch jobs every 5 years have problem finding new jobs when they are older. If you know of something else you'd rather be doing, and you are able to support yourself[0], and have a reasonable 10 year horizon, by all means do. But if there's nothing you are passionate about, then in all likelihood you would be just as burned and make less just trying to run an alternative method of income. That said, I highly recommend reading Tim Ferris' "4 hour work week" book. Do not treat it as gospel, but do follow the math - it will give you a good idea (and possibly some inspiration) of where you need to be and possibly some steps on the way to get there. [0] but, be honest with yourself - if you make less, will you still be happy enough outside of work? Many people aren't as happy once they find out what they actually have to give up. Just give the difference to charity for a couple of months to see how well you manage.

gaius 10y ago
On a 30-year forward looking basis, we appear to be fucked, though - the only 50-year old software guys I know are either self employed, or have been working at the same place for 20 years. Even "stable" employees who only switch jobs every 5 years have problem finding new jobs when they are older. Ageism is definitely a problem in software, but not in other specialized fields, which suggests to me that it is fixable.
- beagle3 10y ago
  > Ageism is definitely a problem in software, but not in other specialized fields, which suggests to me that it is fixable. It will take decades to fix if ever, and the fixed state won't be recognizable. In my opinion, ageism in software exists mostly because it is a fashion business, and (statistically speaking, and rather objectively), older people are not as good at catering to the latest fashions. This also happens in the real fashion business (that of clothes, makeup etc) and also in marketing and advertising, and acting. The fields in which ageism is not a problem are mostly regulated fields (medicine, law, mechanical engineering), where someone can die or lose their freedom as a result of malpractice. People in these fields often need to prove they are up to date with recent methods and findings to keep their certification. I, for one, would NOT like to have to prove competence with hadoop or Angular (and then .NET WinForms, followed by WPF the following year, followed by Node.js the next one) to not lose my license -- and if software developers ARE licensed, the requirements will probable [d]evolve that way.
  - gaius 10y ago
    It's also a matter of younger people being more susceptible to poor management practices and exploitation, e.g. working for "equity" that a more experienced engineer would discount as being no substitute for market-rate salary. But engineers do it to ourselves too. All the Java guys mocked the COBOL guys for being obsolete old fogies, and now the Java guys are on the receiving end of that, from I dunno Node.js guys, who are going to experience the same themselves in 20 years. We need a culture change so that "legacy" is not seen as a pejorative but a solid, proven foundation on which the organization relies - because this is actually the truth.
  - dozzie 10y ago
    > In my opinion, ageism in software exists mostly because it is a fashion business I don't think so. The demand for programmers was inflated only in recent fifteen-twenty years, so compared to today, then nobody was entering IT. This is why there's so little people with 10-15-20 years of experience and kids after three years of work consider themselves senior programmers. And why there's little 40+ people who have just three years under their belt? Retraining is very hard thing to do.
  - mattm 10y ago
    > It will take decades to fix if ever, and the fixed state won't be recognizable. It will fix itself. Software became popular with the rise of the Internet which didn't happen till the late 90's. If we assume people at that time were in their mid-late 20's, then they would be in their mid-late 40's now. Basically, there just isn't that many 50+ developers out there. In another 10-20 years there will be a lot more and older programmers will be much more common and therefore won't be as out of place.
    - beagle3 10y ago
      I worked with 30 year old programmers 25 years ago. I worked with 30 year old programmers 20 years ago. None of those guys are still coding. Some moved to management, some to consulting (as in, real consulting). None that I'm in touch with is still writing code. There aren't as many 50 year old developers as younger ones, but there are enough to see a pattern (and for things like the Google lawsuit age discrimination lawsuit[0] - we'll have to wait and see how that works out). Whether it will change when there are more 50 year old developers or not - my bet is that it won't. [0] http://www.computerworld.com/article/3090087/it-careers/google-age-discrimination-lawsuit-may-become-monster.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/3090087/it-careers/goog...

by beagle3 10y ago

gaius 10y ago

On a 30-year forward looking basis, we appear to be fucked, though - the only 50-year old software guys I know are either self employed, or have been working at the same place for 20 years. Even "stable" employees who only switch jobs every 5 years have problem finding new jobs when they are older. Ageism is definitely a problem in software, but not in other specialized fields, which suggests to me that it is fixable.

beagle3 10y ago
> Ageism is definitely a problem in software, but not in other specialized fields, which suggests to me that it is fixable. It will take decades to fix if ever, and the fixed state won't be recognizable. In my opinion, ageism in software exists mostly because it is a fashion business, and (statistically speaking, and rather objectively), older people are not as good at catering to the latest fashions. This also happens in the real fashion business (that of clothes, makeup etc) and also in marketing and advertising, and acting. The fields in which ageism is not a problem are mostly regulated fields (medicine, law, mechanical engineering), where someone can die or lose their freedom as a result of malpractice. People in these fields often need to prove they are up to date with recent methods and findings to keep their certification. I, for one, would NOT like to have to prove competence with hadoop or Angular (and then .NET WinForms, followed by WPF the following year, followed by Node.js the next one) to not lose my license -- and if software developers ARE licensed, the requirements will probable [d]evolve that way.
- gaius 10y ago
  It's also a matter of younger people being more susceptible to poor management practices and exploitation, e.g. working for "equity" that a more experienced engineer would discount as being no substitute for market-rate salary. But engineers do it to ourselves too. All the Java guys mocked the COBOL guys for being obsolete old fogies, and now the Java guys are on the receiving end of that, from I dunno Node.js guys, who are going to experience the same themselves in 20 years. We need a culture change so that "legacy" is not seen as a pejorative but a solid, proven foundation on which the organization relies - because this is actually the truth.
- dozzie 10y ago
  > In my opinion, ageism in software exists mostly because it is a fashion business I don't think so. The demand for programmers was inflated only in recent fifteen-twenty years, so compared to today, then nobody was entering IT. This is why there's so little people with 10-15-20 years of experience and kids after three years of work consider themselves senior programmers. And why there's little 40+ people who have just three years under their belt? Retraining is very hard thing to do.
- mattm 10y ago
  > It will take decades to fix if ever, and the fixed state won't be recognizable. It will fix itself. Software became popular with the rise of the Internet which didn't happen till the late 90's. If we assume people at that time were in their mid-late 20's, then they would be in their mid-late 40's now. Basically, there just isn't that many 50+ developers out there. In another 10-20 years there will be a lot more and older programmers will be much more common and therefore won't be as out of place.
  - beagle3 10y ago
    I worked with 30 year old programmers 25 years ago. I worked with 30 year old programmers 20 years ago. None of those guys are still coding. Some moved to management, some to consulting (as in, real consulting). None that I'm in touch with is still writing code. There aren't as many 50 year old developers as younger ones, but there are enough to see a pattern (and for things like the Google lawsuit age discrimination lawsuit[0] - we'll have to wait and see how that works out). Whether it will change when there are more 50 year old developers or not - my bet is that it won't. [0] http://www.computerworld.com/article/3090087/it-careers/google-age-discrimination-lawsuit-may-become-monster.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/3090087/it-careers/goog...