5 ms·

I think that the issue there is not with the ID per se, but with the cost (in time and money) disproportionately affecting the poor and also with the fact that

by IIAOPSW 10y ago

I think that the issue there is not with the ID per se, but with the cost (in time and money) disproportionately affecting the poor and also with the fact that it de facto creates a national ID system (which some are ideologically opposed to). I would be ok with voter ID laws which accepted a multitude of valid existing documents. E.g if you allow passport, driver license, state ID, SS card and birth cert then there probably does not exist a person whom does not have at least one of those.

35bge57dtjku 10y ago
The ones you mentioned that actually have a photo on them cost money, and ids without photos can be used by anyone...
imjustsaying 10y ago
> E.g if you allow passport, driver license, state ID, SS card and birth cert then there probably does not exist a person whom does not have at least one of those. Passports, driver licenses, and state IDs are dependent upon first having an SS card and/or birth certificate, depending on the state. Therefore, we can narrow the nexus down to a birth certificate or an SS card. There are plenty of domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card (based on some state birth procedures I am familiar with, acquiring a federal SS number at birth is optional at the choice of the parents). There are also plenty of people who were not born in the US, but have become naturalized citizens. So it seems that there would be plenty of people who have neither of those nexuses.
- NhanH 10y ago
  > There are plenty of domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card (based on some state birth procedures I am familiar with, acquiring a federal SS number at birth is optional at the choice of the parents). There are also plenty of people who were not born in the US, but have become naturalized citizens. I don't have ball in the game (not US citizen), but your argument is flawed, specifically in two cases: - Domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card but have a birth certificate. - Naturalized citizens without birth certificate but have SS. You didn't specify why it could happen that these two cases would not cover everyone in your two listings.
  - imjustsaying 10y ago
    A person doesn't necessarily get an SS number at birth. And a naturalized citizen doesn't have a birth certificate. Therefore, some people might not have either one of these documents. Of course, a citizen is normally eligible to get such documents by applying at whichever bureau. But, it is conceivable that some people don't have them. Practically speaking, it is difficult to live life in the US without an SS number/card. You can't open a bank account, get identity documents, (get a passport?), get student loans, or be a employee in a company that wants to record your SS for tax compliance purposes. Anecdotally, I have read that some people refuse to give their kids a number at birth via SS. This then means they have to go through extra paperwork later in life if they want to get one when they are adults. Also anecdotally, I was renewing my driver's license recently, and I overheard the 40+ year old woman at the counter next to me tell the clerk she never had a driver's license or a state ID. She seemed pretty embarrassed about it, probably because without a driver's license or state ID, it's clear that she wasn't able to participate in things like opening a bank account, for which a photo ID is required (unless she had a passport). If this all seems kind of crazy, just consider that in the US, the federal government, state government and individual are all sovereign, just in different and sometimes overlapping ways.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - foldr 10y ago
      Just a small correction. You can in fact open a bank account without an SSN.(I did so without any problem when I was studying in the US.)
      - imjustsaying 10y ago
        That's cool, I'm glad to learn that. Regulations on some things, for example driver's licenses, private mailboxes (and maybe bank accounts?), got tightened up/federalized with the passing of the Patriot Act/Real ID Act in (2004?). For example, to open a private mailbox, I have to fill out a federal form now. Additionally, I can no longer use that mailbox as a registered address for a bank account. Did you use any kind of federal identifier, for example an EIN (something you can apply to the feds to get, often used for businesses), or did you use your passport/passport number, or none of the above?
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  All of those people are able to get IDs if they want to. There's many ways to prove identity for purposes of getting government photo ID.
  - imjustsaying 10y ago
    Yes, those people can get IDs. I'm just saying that they, for whatever reason, by choice or chance, haven't done so.
dsfyu404ed 10y ago
Unfortunately, your political opponents will be happy to show the media a parade of people who by some external circumstances couldn't access any of those when they needed too. It can't be that hard to find a non-white single working mother who had her purse with her driver's license in it stolen.
throw23523413 10y ago
>I would be ok with voter ID laws which accepted a multitude of valid existing documents. E.g if you allow passport, driver license, state ID, SS card and birth cert then there probably does not exist a person whom does not have at least one of those. In Canada, this is how it works [0]. If you don't have photo ID, you can show an ID with name and an ID with name and address (where "ID" is defined very broadly and includes things like credit card statements or letters issued by university residences and soup kitchens). While this requirement still has an onus on the underprivileged, the ID legislation is very focused on allowing as many people as possible to vote. You can register on the day of the election. Canadian (federal) elections also are still counted by hand. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it generally works with few problems. This is what legislation designed to mitigate fraud, while still acting in good faith to let everyone vote, looks like. [0]:http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&doc...

by IIAOPSW 10y ago

35bge57dtjku 10y ago

The ones you mentioned that actually have a photo on them cost money, and ids without photos can be used by anyone...

imjustsaying 10y ago

> E.g if you allow passport, driver license, state ID, SS card and birth cert then there probably does not exist a person whom does not have at least one of those. Passports, driver licenses, and state IDs are dependent upon first having an SS card and/or birth certificate, depending on the state. Therefore, we can narrow the nexus down to a birth certificate or an SS card. There are plenty of domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card (based on some state birth procedures I am familiar with, acquiring a federal SS number at birth is optional at the choice of the parents). There are also plenty of people who were not born in the US, but have become naturalized citizens. So it seems that there would be plenty of people who have neither of those nexuses.

NhanH 10y ago
> There are plenty of domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card (based on some state birth procedures I am familiar with, acquiring a federal SS number at birth is optional at the choice of the parents). There are also plenty of people who were not born in the US, but have become naturalized citizens. I don't have ball in the game (not US citizen), but your argument is flawed, specifically in two cases: - Domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card but have a birth certificate. - Naturalized citizens without birth certificate but have SS. You didn't specify why it could happen that these two cases would not cover everyone in your two listings.
- imjustsaying 10y ago
  A person doesn't necessarily get an SS number at birth. And a naturalized citizen doesn't have a birth certificate. Therefore, some people might not have either one of these documents. Of course, a citizen is normally eligible to get such documents by applying at whichever bureau. But, it is conceivable that some people don't have them. Practically speaking, it is difficult to live life in the US without an SS number/card. You can't open a bank account, get identity documents, (get a passport?), get student loans, or be a employee in a company that wants to record your SS for tax compliance purposes. Anecdotally, I have read that some people refuse to give their kids a number at birth via SS. This then means they have to go through extra paperwork later in life if they want to get one when they are adults. Also anecdotally, I was renewing my driver's license recently, and I overheard the 40+ year old woman at the counter next to me tell the clerk she never had a driver's license or a state ID. She seemed pretty embarrassed about it, probably because without a driver's license or state ID, it's clear that she wasn't able to participate in things like opening a bank account, for which a photo ID is required (unless she had a passport). If this all seems kind of crazy, just consider that in the US, the federal government, state government and individual are all sovereign, just in different and sometimes overlapping ways.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - foldr 10y ago
    Just a small correction. You can in fact open a bank account without an SSN.(I did so without any problem when I was studying in the US.)
    - imjustsaying 10y ago
      That's cool, I'm glad to learn that. Regulations on some things, for example driver's licenses, private mailboxes (and maybe bank accounts?), got tightened up/federalized with the passing of the Patriot Act/Real ID Act in (2004?). For example, to open a private mailbox, I have to fill out a federal form now. Additionally, I can no longer use that mailbox as a registered address for a bank account. Did you use any kind of federal identifier, for example an EIN (something you can apply to the feds to get, often used for businesses), or did you use your passport/passport number, or none of the above?
marcoperaza 10y ago
All of those people are able to get IDs if they want to. There's many ways to prove identity for purposes of getting government photo ID.
- imjustsaying 10y ago
  Yes, those people can get IDs. I'm just saying that they, for whatever reason, by choice or chance, haven't done so.

dsfyu404ed 10y ago

Unfortunately, your political opponents will be happy to show the media a parade of people who by some external circumstances couldn't access any of those when they needed too. It can't be that hard to find a non-white single working mother who had her purse with her driver's license in it stolen.

throw23523413 10y ago

>I would be ok with voter ID laws which accepted a multitude of valid existing documents. E.g if you allow passport, driver license, state ID, SS card and birth cert then there probably does not exist a person whom does not have at least one of those. In Canada, this is how it works [0]. If you don't have photo ID, you can show an ID with name and an ID with name and address (where "ID" is defined very broadly and includes things like credit card statements or letters issued by university residences and soup kitchens). While this requirement still has an onus on the underprivileged, the ID legislation is very focused on allowing as many people as possible to vote. You can register on the day of the election. Canadian (federal) elections also are still counted by hand. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it generally works with few problems. This is what legislation designed to mitigate fraud, while still acting in good faith to let everyone vote, looks like. [0]:http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&doc...