4 ms·

I was an election judge in Colorado in 1994, '98, '00, and '04. I observed elections in North Carolina in 2006 and '08. The Colorado elections used paper ballo

by sverige 10y ago

I was an election judge in Colorado in 1994, '98, '00, and '04. I observed elections in North Carolina in 2006 and '08. The Colorado elections used paper ballots (complete with "hanging chads") and from what I could tell were run pretty fair and square. One year there were some problems with some of the kids from the local college where rich Easterners send their lower-caliber offspring when they can't get into the Ivy League. They flooded a particular precinct insisting that they be given provisional ballots (name not on the list and ballots not counted unless it's close). They didn't meet the requirements even for those ballots and some threw a hissy fit. The local prosecutor discovered that many had already voted absentee back in their home state. They were not prosecuted, unfortunately. In North Carolina in '06, the precinct captain ran it by the books. In '08, same precinct, same captain, many were allowed to vote provisionally even though they didn't meet the requirements (didn't live in the county they were trying to vote in). Others told me it was similar in other precincts. Paper ballots, ID, and lots of well-trained observers seem to be the best way to avoid the threats from social engineering and hack attacks on the integrity of the voting process. I would even go for the purple dye they use on the thumbs of voters in some countries to prevent people from traveling precinct to precinct to vote for dead people and people who have moved away who are still on the rolls. (There are more than you probably think.) In general, my observation has been that the voting process has become more corrupt over the past 20 years. It's just damn hard to catch it if the people who are supposed to enforce the rules don't care to.

marcoperaza 10y ago
But here's the problem: "You want to check ID at the polling place? You must be a racist! Here's how that represents a tiny, yet unacceptable burden, for some underprivileged group." This is actually where we are as a country. It's depressing.
- IIAOPSW 10y ago
  I think that the issue there is not with the ID per se, but with the cost (in time and money) disproportionately affecting the poor and also with the fact that it de facto creates a national ID system (which some are ideologically opposed to). I would be ok with voter ID laws which accepted a multitude of valid existing documents. E.g if you allow passport, driver license, state ID, SS card and birth cert then there probably does not exist a person whom does not have at least one of those.
  - 35bge57dtjku 10y ago
    The ones you mentioned that actually have a photo on them cost money, and ids without photos can be used by anyone...
  - imjustsaying 10y ago
    > E.g if you allow passport, driver license, state ID, SS card and birth cert then there probably does not exist a person whom does not have at least one of those. Passports, driver licenses, and state IDs are dependent upon first having an SS card and/or birth certificate, depending on the state. Therefore, we can narrow the nexus down to a birth certificate or an SS card. There are plenty of domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card (based on some state birth procedures I am familiar with, acquiring a federal SS number at birth is optional at the choice of the parents). There are also plenty of people who were not born in the US, but have become naturalized citizens. So it seems that there would be plenty of people who have neither of those nexuses.
    - NhanH 10y ago
      > There are plenty of domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card (based on some state birth procedures I am familiar with, acquiring a federal SS number at birth is optional at the choice of the parents). There are also plenty of people who were not born in the US, but have become naturalized citizens. I don't have ball in the game (not US citizen), but your argument is flawed, specifically in two cases: - Domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card but have a birth certificate. - Naturalized citizens without birth certificate but have SS. You didn't specify why it could happen that these two cases would not cover everyone in your two listings.
      - imjustsaying 10y ago
        A person doesn't necessarily get an SS number at birth. And a naturalized citizen doesn't have a birth certificate. Therefore, some people might not have either one of these documents. Of course, a citizen is normally eligible to get such documents by applying at whichever bureau. But, it is conceivable that some people don't have them. Practically speaking, it is difficult to live life in the US without an SS number/card. You can't open a bank account, get identity documents, (get a passport?), get student loans, or be a employee in a company that wants to record your SS for tax compliance purposes. Anecdotally, I have read that some people refuse to give their kids a number at birth via SS. This then means they have to go through extra paperwork later in life if they want to get one when they are adults. Also anecdotally, I was renewing my driver's license recently, and I overheard the 40+ year old woman at the counter next to me tell the clerk she never had a driver's license or a state ID. She seemed pretty embarrassed about it, probably because without a driver's license or state ID, it's clear that she wasn't able to participate in things like opening a bank account, for which a photo ID is required (unless she had a passport). If this all seems kind of crazy, just consider that in the US, the federal government, state government and individual are all sovereign, just in different and sometimes overlapping ways.
- niftich 10y ago
  It disproportionately affects the poor who have trouble with transportation and scheduling to get a photo ID (since they may not be drivers, and therefore previously may not have had the need for a photo ID), and also the elderly, whose birth records may be difficult to find. It obviously doesn't affect those who regularly have up-to-date photo IDs, say, because they already drive everywhere. If we offered same-day voter registration at every polling place, or had automatic voter registration by virtue of some other government process, this would be a non-issue.
  - leot 10y ago
    "voter fraud" requires a conspiracy to be remotely effective. Laws should just target that by offering a big bounty for snitchers.
- wtallis 10y ago
  It is possible to have respectable motives for trying to enact voter ID requirements. That doesn't mean the voter ID requirements that have been enacted were well-intentioned. The patterns in what forms of ID were deemed acceptable (eg. gun licenses but not student IDs), the limited options for obtaining the free IDs that states are required to make available (eg. office open only of the fifth Wednesday of the month), and the other restrictions often enacted simultaneously (eg. reduced early voting times and locations) all add up to an undeniable pattern of discriminatory intent, especially when the coordinating efforts of organizations like ALEC are considered. Voter ID, for all that it may be justifiable in some incarnations, has been tainted by association with bigotry for at least the next generation or two. The problems with our elections will either have to be solved through other means, or at least with a very different kind of voter ID system.
- lotso 10y ago
  I think it's more depressing that the people advocating for the rules are looking to disproportionately affect the poor and/or minorities. The goal isn't reduced voter fraud. Its to win elections. Its also concerning given the history of discriminating against black voters in this country.
- lotso 10y ago
  I think it's more depressing that the people advocating for the rules are looking to disproportionately affect the poor and/or minorities. The goal isn't reduced voter fraud. Its to win elections.
XorNot 10y ago
Does the US not reconcile voting registers... apparently ever? I'm genuinely confused by the idea that those provisional votes could actually effect the outcome if cast fraudulent ly.

by sverige 10y ago

marcoperaza 10y ago

But here's the problem: "You want to check ID at the polling place? You must be a racist! Here's how that represents a tiny, yet unacceptable burden, for some underprivileged group." This is actually where we are as a country. It's depressing.

IIAOPSW 10y ago
I think that the issue there is not with the ID per se, but with the cost (in time and money) disproportionately affecting the poor and also with the fact that it de facto creates a national ID system (which some are ideologically opposed to). I would be ok with voter ID laws which accepted a multitude of valid existing documents. E.g if you allow passport, driver license, state ID, SS card and birth cert then there probably does not exist a person whom does not have at least one of those.
- 35bge57dtjku 10y ago
  The ones you mentioned that actually have a photo on them cost money, and ids without photos can be used by anyone...
- imjustsaying 10y ago
  > E.g if you allow passport, driver license, state ID, SS card and birth cert then there probably does not exist a person whom does not have at least one of those. Passports, driver licenses, and state IDs are dependent upon first having an SS card and/or birth certificate, depending on the state. Therefore, we can narrow the nexus down to a birth certificate or an SS card. There are plenty of domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card (based on some state birth procedures I am familiar with, acquiring a federal SS number at birth is optional at the choice of the parents). There are also plenty of people who were not born in the US, but have become naturalized citizens. So it seems that there would be plenty of people who have neither of those nexuses.
  - NhanH 10y ago
    > There are plenty of domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card (based on some state birth procedures I am familiar with, acquiring a federal SS number at birth is optional at the choice of the parents). There are also plenty of people who were not born in the US, but have become naturalized citizens. I don't have ball in the game (not US citizen), but your argument is flawed, specifically in two cases: - Domestically-born citizens who do not have an SS card but have a birth certificate. - Naturalized citizens without birth certificate but have SS. You didn't specify why it could happen that these two cases would not cover everyone in your two listings.
    - imjustsaying 10y ago
      A person doesn't necessarily get an SS number at birth. And a naturalized citizen doesn't have a birth certificate. Therefore, some people might not have either one of these documents. Of course, a citizen is normally eligible to get such documents by applying at whichever bureau. But, it is conceivable that some people don't have them. Practically speaking, it is difficult to live life in the US without an SS number/card. You can't open a bank account, get identity documents, (get a passport?), get student loans, or be a employee in a company that wants to record your SS for tax compliance purposes. Anecdotally, I have read that some people refuse to give their kids a number at birth via SS. This then means they have to go through extra paperwork later in life if they want to get one when they are adults. Also anecdotally, I was renewing my driver's license recently, and I overheard the 40+ year old woman at the counter next to me tell the clerk she never had a driver's license or a state ID. She seemed pretty embarrassed about it, probably because without a driver's license or state ID, it's clear that she wasn't able to participate in things like opening a bank account, for which a photo ID is required (unless she had a passport). If this all seems kind of crazy, just consider that in the US, the federal government, state government and individual are all sovereign, just in different and sometimes overlapping ways.
niftich 10y ago
It disproportionately affects the poor who have trouble with transportation and scheduling to get a photo ID (since they may not be drivers, and therefore previously may not have had the need for a photo ID), and also the elderly, whose birth records may be difficult to find. It obviously doesn't affect those who regularly have up-to-date photo IDs, say, because they already drive everywhere. If we offered same-day voter registration at every polling place, or had automatic voter registration by virtue of some other government process, this would be a non-issue.
- leot 10y ago
  "voter fraud" requires a conspiracy to be remotely effective. Laws should just target that by offering a big bounty for snitchers.
wtallis 10y ago
It is possible to have respectable motives for trying to enact voter ID requirements. That doesn't mean the voter ID requirements that have been enacted were well-intentioned. The patterns in what forms of ID were deemed acceptable (eg. gun licenses but not student IDs), the limited options for obtaining the free IDs that states are required to make available (eg. office open only of the fifth Wednesday of the month), and the other restrictions often enacted simultaneously (eg. reduced early voting times and locations) all add up to an undeniable pattern of discriminatory intent, especially when the coordinating efforts of organizations like ALEC are considered. Voter ID, for all that it may be justifiable in some incarnations, has been tainted by association with bigotry for at least the next generation or two. The problems with our elections will either have to be solved through other means, or at least with a very different kind of voter ID system.
lotso 10y ago
I think it's more depressing that the people advocating for the rules are looking to disproportionately affect the poor and/or minorities. The goal isn't reduced voter fraud. Its to win elections. Its also concerning given the history of discriminating against black voters in this country.
lotso 10y ago
I think it's more depressing that the people advocating for the rules are looking to disproportionately affect the poor and/or minorities. The goal isn't reduced voter fraud. Its to win elections.

XorNot 10y ago

Does the US not reconcile voting registers... apparently ever? I'm genuinely confused by the idea that those provisional votes could actually effect the outcome if cast fraudulent ly.