4 ms·

In an effort to avoid politics as much as I can, roads tend to escape scrutiny about government subsidies because they are a baseline, bring-your-own-vehicle re

by niftich 10y ago

In an effort to avoid politics as much as I can, roads tend to escape scrutiny about government subsidies because they are a baseline, bring-your-own-vehicle requirement, which doesn't smell nearly as 'subsidized' to people who then have to provide their own cars to use them. In the 'equity' vs 'equality' debate, roads are 'equality': everyone is given the same road to succeed, but of course not everyone has a vehicle to make use of it properly. But this debate pops up in areas when tolls, euphemistic "usage fees", or increases in fuel taxes are proposed to pay for new roads.

honkhonkpants 10y ago
Yes, but the road itself always loses 100% of the money, except for toll roads. It is considered to be an external benefit to the economy that people can move around, even if they have to bring their own vehicles. Therefore it is true in the case of roads that we collectively believe subsidies lead to a better economy. It is not nonsense to extend that belief to railroads.
- niftich 10y ago
  Perhaps it can be generalized as 'people tend to support only things that are directly and immediately beneficial to their current life circumstances, and demonstrably non-detrimental to their real or perceived future lifestyle prospects'.
- barney54 10y ago
  Gas taxes are the user fees people pay to use the roads. In no sense is it true that roads always loose 100% of money.
  - mapt 10y ago
    http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-only-half-state-local-road-spending http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fee...
  - millamox 10y ago
    In New York, less than half of the cost of roads is borne by drivers via the gas tax. In California, drivers pay less than a quarter of the cost. There are no states in the US where gas taxes cover more than 60% of the cost of roads. This is another form of racism/classism. White people have no problem paying for white people transport (cars!). They object to "city" transport which often carries poor and other-colored people.
    - coredog64 10y ago
      If only there was a way to charge for the privilege of driving on the road. Maybe we could stamp out steel plates to affix to vehicles. Those plates could signify that the owner has paid an annual fee for using the road. As I understand it, cars can be fairly expensive. Maybe some kind of tax on the sale of each one could bring in a few bucks.
    - pyridine 10y ago
      So it's racist to drive now?
      - ocb 10y ago
        The comment you're replying to did say "classist" as well. I'm sure you're aware of the US's unequal spread of wealth among different racial groups in its population... You are not personally being called racist. People in the US are generally completely unaware of how subsidized their drive-everywhere, segregated-zoning lifestyles are. Land use choices have very real effects and in the vast majority of the US, you HAVE to own a car or you are completely handicapped in terms of access to jobs and services. Public transit infrastructure proposals in the US are routinely downscaled/defeated because a lot of people think that anything other than building roads = money pit subsidies for the dumb uneducated poor people who live in the city. If you don't agree with the egalitarian side of the argument for making cars less necessary to living in America, you should at least be able to see the hypocrisy of the general attitude towards transit given the fact that gas taxes and other car-related usage fees that fund roads don't come anywhere near making the road network "pay for itself". I suspect that as Millennials age and gain political power, given their left-leaning politics and greater preference for urban living, this situation will change to look more like Canada does now, which is similarly car-dependent but also generally has cities with more reasonable public transit options.
  - smileysteve 10y ago
    The last gas tax raise was in 1993 and it's not inflation adjusted. The federal highway fund is out of money, bridges are crumbling. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/opinion/sunday/raise-the-gas-tax-to-fix-americas-roads.html?_r=0&pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/opinion/sunday/raise-the-g... 100% is an exaggeration, but it's not far off. Our roads aren't just failing from a lack of maintenance, they're failing in one generation, they're failing to be paid for from usage taxes before they need full replacement.

by niftich 10y ago

honkhonkpants 10y ago

Yes, but the road itself always loses 100% of the money, except for toll roads. It is considered to be an external benefit to the economy that people can move around, even if they have to bring their own vehicles. Therefore it is true in the case of roads that we collectively believe subsidies lead to a better economy. It is not nonsense to extend that belief to railroads.

niftich 10y ago
Perhaps it can be generalized as 'people tend to support only things that are directly and immediately beneficial to their current life circumstances, and demonstrably non-detrimental to their real or perceived future lifestyle prospects'.
barney54 10y ago
Gas taxes are the user fees people pay to use the roads. In no sense is it true that roads always loose 100% of money.
- mapt 10y ago
  http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-only-half-state-local-road-spending http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fee...
- millamox 10y ago
  In New York, less than half of the cost of roads is borne by drivers via the gas tax. In California, drivers pay less than a quarter of the cost. There are no states in the US where gas taxes cover more than 60% of the cost of roads. This is another form of racism/classism. White people have no problem paying for white people transport (cars!). They object to "city" transport which often carries poor and other-colored people.
  - coredog64 10y ago
    If only there was a way to charge for the privilege of driving on the road. Maybe we could stamp out steel plates to affix to vehicles. Those plates could signify that the owner has paid an annual fee for using the road. As I understand it, cars can be fairly expensive. Maybe some kind of tax on the sale of each one could bring in a few bucks.
  - pyridine 10y ago
    So it's racist to drive now?
    - ocb 10y ago
      The comment you're replying to did say "classist" as well. I'm sure you're aware of the US's unequal spread of wealth among different racial groups in its population... You are not personally being called racist. People in the US are generally completely unaware of how subsidized their drive-everywhere, segregated-zoning lifestyles are. Land use choices have very real effects and in the vast majority of the US, you HAVE to own a car or you are completely handicapped in terms of access to jobs and services. Public transit infrastructure proposals in the US are routinely downscaled/defeated because a lot of people think that anything other than building roads = money pit subsidies for the dumb uneducated poor people who live in the city. If you don't agree with the egalitarian side of the argument for making cars less necessary to living in America, you should at least be able to see the hypocrisy of the general attitude towards transit given the fact that gas taxes and other car-related usage fees that fund roads don't come anywhere near making the road network "pay for itself". I suspect that as Millennials age and gain political power, given their left-leaning politics and greater preference for urban living, this situation will change to look more like Canada does now, which is similarly car-dependent but also generally has cities with more reasonable public transit options.
- smileysteve 10y ago
  The last gas tax raise was in 1993 and it's not inflation adjusted. The federal highway fund is out of money, bridges are crumbling. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/opinion/sunday/raise-the-gas-tax-to-fix-americas-roads.html?_r=0&pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/opinion/sunday/raise-the-g... 100% is an exaggeration, but it's not far off. Our roads aren't just failing from a lack of maintenance, they're failing in one generation, they're failing to be paid for from usage taxes before they need full replacement.