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And I hear from family and friends about how we 'coddle' people in the system too much, and we're not 'tough' enough. A large number of our people seem to thin

And I hear from family and friends about how we 'coddle' people in the system too much, and we're not 'tough' enough. A large number of our people seem to think if we're sufficiently cruel and inhuman to people accused of breaking the law, then people will magically stop getting suspected of breaking the law. It's more than a little horrifying seeing people's eyes light up when they talk about how our cops aren't afraid to kill people and how merciless our prisons are. This horrifying system is a symptom of our cruelty, and any move to make this more humane (or less of an atrocity) will face stiff resistance from people who get off on seeing people get punished. I don't know what I can do, or what anyone can do.

WalterBright 10y ago
I'd like to see a move away from sentencing being regarded as punishment. It should be more along the lines of a person needing to be withdrawn from society for a time because they cannot behave themselves. I.e. it should be about protecting society from them.
- microcolonel 10y ago
  This has the public opinion problem that once you think about it that way, many things become life sentences on the basis that reform is scarcely possible. Personally I think that people should be in jail for as long as they remain dangerous, but many people are not comfortable with that logic.
  - nowarninglabel 10y ago
    There's actually a fantastic anime based on that premise, "Psycho-Pass". Shows the pros/cons of that approach.
    - bsder 10y ago
      I think you missed the point of "Psycho-Pass", at least the first season. The point of "Pscho-Pass" is "What is justice?" Who decides? What is the standard? Why is it the standard? Should it be the standard?
  - angry_octet 10y ago
    It's often a catch-22 situation: as long as they remain in jail they will remain dangerous, due to the nature of prison. The problem of re-integrating felons with society is difficult and often ignored. It can be impossible to get work for many of these people, leading almost inevitably back to criminality (primarily narcotics, thence prostitution and petty theft).
- maxerickson 10y ago
  That removal from society is punishing. Confinement and institutionalization are harsh things to do to a person.
  - dkbrk 10y ago
    I agree with you: deprivation of a person's liberty is, in itself, a harsh punishment, even without taking into account the details of their incarceration. However, reasons matter. If policy dictates the purpose is to punish, then that justifies longer sentences "to make sure they are sufficiently punished" and to be ill-treated because "they are here to be punished". If policy dictates the purpose is to act as a deterrent to other crimes, then sentences are not justified as any longer than required to serve that purpose. That can be empirically observed, and I believe it has been studied and shown there is a strong scope insensitivity to the magnitude of punishments. This is even more pronounced in criminals, who are disproportionately more likely to have lower-than-average general intelligence or impulse control issues. If policy dictates the purpose is to keep the criminal out of society until they are ready to rejoin it, then incarceration should be optimised for preparing them to return to society, and they should not be kept imprisoned any longer when they are ready. How to judge whether this has been accomplished is difficult, but the effectiveness of the methods can be empirically observed, principally by recidivism rates. Note that the purpose of "punishment" is the only reason of these that cannot be empirically observed. It can justify just about any mistreatment, and doesn't, as far as I can tell, have any firm ethical justification except for the religious or pseudo-religious. So even if it seems like a minor question, deciding the purpose of the criminal justice system is of the utmost importance and has wide-ranging policy implications.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      Neither GP or I expressed a great deal of nuance, but I'd like to see a move away from sentencing being regarded as punishment. calls for a reply. It should absolutely be regarded as a punishment. It's just that we are damn fools if that's all we use it for.
      - 10y ago
chillingeffect 10y ago
We need to teach real self sufficient skills in schools. Such as financial education, physical and emotional well-being. And we need to get successful ppl on front of the kids. Many do not respect teachers bc they're not viewed as financially successful or independent. This will help engage young ppl and help them feel as one with the rest of the world with their freedom intact instead of on a corporate conveyor belt to identity politics hell.
Asooka 10y ago
"The cruelties will continue until humanity improves" sort of thing, eh...
vijayr 10y ago
A small example of public's attitude can be seen in prison rape jokes, both in real life casually and in media/movies. Most people just look at cons as less than humans, even the non-violent ones. And then we have media "personalities" like Nancy Grace who make a mockery of the system.
- new_hackers 10y ago
  Yes, and the fact that in common culture there is a belief that the prison system itself will punish the especially vile offenders. The acceptance and expectation that we can give a child molester a prison sentence so the prison population can kill him is demented. But it seems we routinely give them an official slap on the wrist, then with a wink and a nod we turn the other way and say "do what you will". If child molestation deserves the death sentence, then our system of government should do it outright, instead of relying on the undercurrents of justice.
coldcode 10y ago
The majority of people jailed/sent to prison in this country are due to drug possession charges. The majority of violent offenders are generally in the drug business. Without these two the prisons would be half full and the courts able to keep up.
cookiecaper 10y ago
Consider that these people do not have reliable information sources for what the justice system is really like. They watch the nightly news which recounts the arrests of murderers and thieves of various stripes. They watch Law and Order which shows the elements of the justice system working hard to get and keep the bad guys behind bars, and big showy trials where weeks are spent on determining one person's guilt or innocence. That's generally the extent of the public's interaction with the justice system. What doesn't get shown is that the judge spends 3 minutes looking at your case and passes a mostly-arbitrary sentence. They don't show that you get crammed into a courtroom and forced to wait 5 hours before your case is heard. They don't show that lawyers are more than happy to let you rot if you can't forward them hundreds of thousands of dollars, and that many public defenders consider their cases a total joke (or that many private attorneys frequently blow off their smaller clients). They don't show technicians more considered with linguistic niggles than a moral and fair outcome. Things like Making a Murderer (which had to be shown on Netflix, not a major broadcaster) are helping to break the trance, but there's still a long way to go. Americans have been thoroughly programmed by the elite for decades. We have to undo it and try to show reality, not the flashy Hollywood-style rendition of events. Most people are sympathetic and helpful if they truly understand what's going on.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  Making a Murderer was great - I assume you have seen the news on the case? I think Netflix is now probably a major broadcaster. Don't forget their international reach.
peter303 10y ago
In many states the prison system costs more and contains more people than their school system.

WalterBright 10y ago

I'd like to see a move away from sentencing being regarded as punishment. It should be more along the lines of a person needing to be withdrawn from society for a time because they cannot behave themselves. I.e. it should be about protecting society from them.

microcolonel 10y ago
This has the public opinion problem that once you think about it that way, many things become life sentences on the basis that reform is scarcely possible. Personally I think that people should be in jail for as long as they remain dangerous, but many people are not comfortable with that logic.
- nowarninglabel 10y ago
  There's actually a fantastic anime based on that premise, "Psycho-Pass". Shows the pros/cons of that approach.
  - bsder 10y ago
    I think you missed the point of "Psycho-Pass", at least the first season. The point of "Pscho-Pass" is "What is justice?" Who decides? What is the standard? Why is it the standard? Should it be the standard?
- angry_octet 10y ago
  It's often a catch-22 situation: as long as they remain in jail they will remain dangerous, due to the nature of prison. The problem of re-integrating felons with society is difficult and often ignored. It can be impossible to get work for many of these people, leading almost inevitably back to criminality (primarily narcotics, thence prostitution and petty theft).
maxerickson 10y ago
That removal from society is punishing. Confinement and institutionalization are harsh things to do to a person.
- dkbrk 10y ago
  I agree with you: deprivation of a person's liberty is, in itself, a harsh punishment, even without taking into account the details of their incarceration. However, reasons matter. If policy dictates the purpose is to punish, then that justifies longer sentences "to make sure they are sufficiently punished" and to be ill-treated because "they are here to be punished". If policy dictates the purpose is to act as a deterrent to other crimes, then sentences are not justified as any longer than required to serve that purpose. That can be empirically observed, and I believe it has been studied and shown there is a strong scope insensitivity to the magnitude of punishments. This is even more pronounced in criminals, who are disproportionately more likely to have lower-than-average general intelligence or impulse control issues. If policy dictates the purpose is to keep the criminal out of society until they are ready to rejoin it, then incarceration should be optimised for preparing them to return to society, and they should not be kept imprisoned any longer when they are ready. How to judge whether this has been accomplished is difficult, but the effectiveness of the methods can be empirically observed, principally by recidivism rates. Note that the purpose of "punishment" is the only reason of these that cannot be empirically observed. It can justify just about any mistreatment, and doesn't, as far as I can tell, have any firm ethical justification except for the religious or pseudo-religious. So even if it seems like a minor question, deciding the purpose of the criminal justice system is of the utmost importance and has wide-ranging policy implications.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Neither GP or I expressed a great deal of nuance, but I'd like to see a move away from sentencing being regarded as punishment. calls for a reply. It should absolutely be regarded as a punishment. It's just that we are damn fools if that's all we use it for.
    - 10y ago

chillingeffect 10y ago

We need to teach real self sufficient skills in schools. Such as financial education, physical and emotional well-being. And we need to get successful ppl on front of the kids. Many do not respect teachers bc they're not viewed as financially successful or independent. This will help engage young ppl and help them feel as one with the rest of the world with their freedom intact instead of on a corporate conveyor belt to identity politics hell.

Asooka 10y ago

"The cruelties will continue until humanity improves" sort of thing, eh...

vijayr 10y ago

A small example of public's attitude can be seen in prison rape jokes, both in real life casually and in media/movies. Most people just look at cons as less than humans, even the non-violent ones. And then we have media "personalities" like Nancy Grace who make a mockery of the system.

new_hackers 10y ago
Yes, and the fact that in common culture there is a belief that the prison system itself will punish the especially vile offenders. The acceptance and expectation that we can give a child molester a prison sentence so the prison population can kill him is demented. But it seems we routinely give them an official slap on the wrist, then with a wink and a nod we turn the other way and say "do what you will". If child molestation deserves the death sentence, then our system of government should do it outright, instead of relying on the undercurrents of justice.

coldcode 10y ago

The majority of people jailed/sent to prison in this country are due to drug possession charges. The majority of violent offenders are generally in the drug business. Without these two the prisons would be half full and the courts able to keep up.

cookiecaper 10y ago

Consider that these people do not have reliable information sources for what the justice system is really like. They watch the nightly news which recounts the arrests of murderers and thieves of various stripes. They watch Law and Order which shows the elements of the justice system working hard to get and keep the bad guys behind bars, and big showy trials where weeks are spent on determining one person's guilt or innocence. That's generally the extent of the public's interaction with the justice system. What doesn't get shown is that the judge spends 3 minutes looking at your case and passes a mostly-arbitrary sentence. They don't show that you get crammed into a courtroom and forced to wait 5 hours before your case is heard. They don't show that lawyers are more than happy to let you rot if you can't forward them hundreds of thousands of dollars, and that many public defenders consider their cases a total joke (or that many private attorneys frequently blow off their smaller clients). They don't show technicians more considered with linguistic niggles than a moral and fair outcome. Things like Making a Murderer (which had to be shown on Netflix, not a major broadcaster) are helping to break the trance, but there's still a long way to go. Americans have been thoroughly programmed by the elite for decades. We have to undo it and try to show reality, not the flashy Hollywood-style rendition of events. Most people are sympathetic and helpful if they truly understand what's going on.

lostlogin 10y ago
Making a Murderer was great - I assume you have seen the news on the case? I think Netflix is now probably a major broadcaster. Don't forget their international reach.

peter303 10y ago

In many states the prison system costs more and contains more people than their school system.