5 ms·

>Even I, as a bankruptcy judge, know that the point of bail is supposed to be simply to ensure that a person will return to court. That is the point of posting

>Even I, as a bankruptcy judge, know that the point of bail is supposed to be simply to ensure that a person will return to court. That is the point of posting bail, but that is not the standard of granting a defendant the right to post bail/bond. The standard is more along the lines of: a) is the defendant a flight risk; and b) does the defendant present a danger to the community. As to b) it is not simply enough that the charges are non-violent, which seemed to shock this Judge. For example, DUI while not a violent crime generally one eligible for bail/bond by default, may not be granted if, say, it is the 3rd or 4th DUI. Or if say the defendant was already out on bail/bond and picked up a new charge, a Judge may revoke the bail/bond on the 1st crime. I'm not claiming this is always how it works and the decisions are always just, but I just want to give a little more perspective. As to the shock of the state of the courthouse, only a Federal Judge would find that shocking. Don't get me wrong it's a pleasure to practice in a gorgeous Federal Courthouse, complete with grand marble accents, but I'm of the opinion those types of luxuries are a waste of tax payer dollars.

chillwaves 10y ago
We don't need marble stairs, but treating people like animals is not the answer either. You seem to gloss over those points of the article (which is to say, the main point).
- will_brown 10y ago
  Half my post was dedicated to one of the issue of treatment the Federal Judge took to issue, denying bail. The only reason I comment on that was because I wanted to expand upon it, because it may not necessarily be as egregious as the Judge thinks, but we don't know bc the facts of that case were omitted. Obviously I don't need to sound off as an echo chamber, racism/off color remarks have no place in the court. That said I also went to law school and read SCOTUS opinions openly referring to African-Americans in ways that would make any decent person shudder. In my own experience, practicing in South Florida, I see similar comments regularly in the Court. Then again in my time I have also filed Motions for Fraud against prosecutors and lodged formal complaints against prisons guards (one example, an immigration detention center guard called my client a "bitch" in front of me and my client suffered from a chromosome issue that mad him look like a women). There are some other things that might sound bad to lay persons, and maybe were, but are quite normal and not necessarily egregious or inhuman. For example, a judge engaging in small talk with prosecutors/PDs or bailiffs is not unusual or necessarily a bad thing either.
skewart 10y ago
> Don't get me wrong it's a pleasure to practice in a gorgeous Federal Courthouse, complete with grand marble accents, but I'm of the opinion those types of luxuries are a waste of tax payer dollars. I completely agree that elaborately ornamented and luxurious buildings are a waste of money. However, it sounds like the courthouse in the Bronx was not just plain and simple, but instead actually decrepit and hostile. You don't have to spend a lot of taxpayer money to have public buildings that are clean and pleasant. (Not that you would necessarily disagree, based on your comment, just adding my own couple of cents).
- zyxley 10y ago
  To me, it sounded from the description like the place was built in the brutalist style and then (as seems to be inevitable for brutalist architecture) degenerated from "imposing" to "dank and oppressive" with lack of proper maintenance.
  - skewart 10y ago
    I have to disagree with the idea that brutality buildings inevitably degenerate into dank and oppressive. Those qualities are almost always orthogonal to style. Usually they have to do with pretty much universally bad design moves, like limited natural light, confusing circulation, and cheap finishes. Of course, poor maintenance can make almost any building pretty dank before too long.
wbl 10y ago
It sends a message about what we value. Lawyers wear suits and judges robes to impress upon everyone that what they do matters. A few marbel panels is a small price to raise people's respect for the law.
- jschwartzi 10y ago
  We decorate according to the import of the institution. Institutions that we value are ornately decorated, while institutions we would prefer to do without are hideous.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    Some examples of each?
rayiner 10y ago
My friend gave me a tour of the Supreme Court the other day. Apparently, each quadrant of the building is made with marble sources from the corresponding regions of the US, and the marble in the main courtroom is Italian. My first reaction was that that this building would never get built today. But I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. I think it's necessary symbolism. The rule of law works because we collectively agree to abide by the rulings of people who don't even have guns. Which is really incredible if you think about it: only in an advanced civilized society like ours can a tiny octogenarian woman like Justice Ginsberg wield the kind of power she does. The fancy marble edifices are part of how we express that collective commitment.
- adrusi 10y ago
  You forget about the clergy.
- will_brown 10y ago
  That is one gorgeous building. I have been twice and done official tours, I imagine a private tour is quite special. I have practiced in both Federal and Court courthouses in Florida, and have been fortunate enough to do the same pro hac vice in a few States. I have seen plenty of Nice County Courts (Palm Beach County is like a mirror image to a Federal Courthouse, though the rooms themselves are not comparable) and some very poor ones too, but I have never seen a poor Federal Courthouse, though they likely exist too. I guess part of my post is just imagining a NY Federal Judge's reaction entering a poor County Courthouse. While your position on necessary symbolism is well received (and I agree), I also think if, say, Bankruptcy Courts were removed from the Federal Courthouse and placed in County Courthouses (even poor ones) it would have little if any impact on the authority and function of that institution. Certainly I wouldn't extend that suggestion to the SCOTUS, though I would probably be intimidated by the bench no matter where they sat.
- Noseshine 10y ago
  > only in an advanced civilized society like ours can a tiny octogenarian woman like > Justice Ginsberg wield the kind of power she does Not really. In any society large enough to require a city and not just a village. Priests didn't have to be strong, neither did kings - a well-known example: http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/9742/20141021/real-king-tut-sick-crippled-ugly.htm http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/9742/20141021/real-k...
cmurf 10y ago
>Don't get me wrong it's a pleasure to practice in a gorgeous Federal Courthouse, complete with grand marble accents, but I'm of the opinion those types of luxuries are a waste of tax payer dollars. It'll last almost forever. See POS city buildings or annexes built in the last ~50 years. At a certain point all of it will will rot. There's no need to paint marble. And no matter how much you paint drywall, it'll still need painting again eventually and there's a limit at which point it increasing looks like junk. Carpeted public places? Gross. Marble everywhere, nice and clean.
- will_brown 10y ago
  The marble does last, but the Federal Courthouses must be restored and renovate like anything else. For example, the Miami Federal Courthouse has been under renovation for what feels like more than 2 years now. That gorgeous masonry work on the outside/facades over time crack and end up breaking off. Maybe the Miami courthouse is just a poor example of good masonry work, but I'm pretty sure it's not unusual for the beautiful masonry in DC to have to continually be attended to in order to avoid continued and further damage.
  - cmurf 10y ago
    I suppose, and I'm all in favor of cost/benefit analysis where it makes more sense to replace rock buildings with something modern with a fixed lifespan. We're sorta stuck with these buildings due in part to the era in which they were built, and that razing them would cost a lot also.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  You don't have earthquakes and other geological excitement where you are I'm guessing. As much as I'd like more marble, the thought of its behaviour in an earthquake would make me less keen.
jrochkind1 10y ago
How many white men making more than, oh let's say, $70K a year get arrested for DUIs? I am confident the number is not insubstantial. How many get denied bail? I am confident the number is miniscule.
- briandear 10y ago
  Any facts to back that up? How about the numbers for non-white men making over $70k? Or women?
  - jrochkind1 10y ago
    There are lots of studies showing racial disparities at all levels of the criminal justice process. I don't know if there are any of specificaly DUI's or even more specifically DUI bail. I would assume it is consistent, but if you have any studies feel free to share. I think the scenario of a DUI being talked about was interesting, because in our stereotypes wealthy white men DUI plenty too. I think the statistics show that DUI is one of the few crimes that there is relatively little racial disparity in arrests, probably because it's a lot less subjective. I do know some white people who have been arrested for DUI, all of them were let out on affordable bail prior to trial, none of them served any prison time.

chillwaves 10y ago

We don't need marble stairs, but treating people like animals is not the answer either. You seem to gloss over those points of the article (which is to say, the main point).

will_brown 10y ago
Half my post was dedicated to one of the issue of treatment the Federal Judge took to issue, denying bail. The only reason I comment on that was because I wanted to expand upon it, because it may not necessarily be as egregious as the Judge thinks, but we don't know bc the facts of that case were omitted. Obviously I don't need to sound off as an echo chamber, racism/off color remarks have no place in the court. That said I also went to law school and read SCOTUS opinions openly referring to African-Americans in ways that would make any decent person shudder. In my own experience, practicing in South Florida, I see similar comments regularly in the Court. Then again in my time I have also filed Motions for Fraud against prosecutors and lodged formal complaints against prisons guards (one example, an immigration detention center guard called my client a "bitch" in front of me and my client suffered from a chromosome issue that mad him look like a women). There are some other things that might sound bad to lay persons, and maybe were, but are quite normal and not necessarily egregious or inhuman. For example, a judge engaging in small talk with prosecutors/PDs or bailiffs is not unusual or necessarily a bad thing either.

skewart 10y ago

> Don't get me wrong it's a pleasure to practice in a gorgeous Federal Courthouse, complete with grand marble accents, but I'm of the opinion those types of luxuries are a waste of tax payer dollars. I completely agree that elaborately ornamented and luxurious buildings are a waste of money. However, it sounds like the courthouse in the Bronx was not just plain and simple, but instead actually decrepit and hostile. You don't have to spend a lot of taxpayer money to have public buildings that are clean and pleasant. (Not that you would necessarily disagree, based on your comment, just adding my own couple of cents).

zyxley 10y ago
To me, it sounded from the description like the place was built in the brutalist style and then (as seems to be inevitable for brutalist architecture) degenerated from "imposing" to "dank and oppressive" with lack of proper maintenance.
- skewart 10y ago
  I have to disagree with the idea that brutality buildings inevitably degenerate into dank and oppressive. Those qualities are almost always orthogonal to style. Usually they have to do with pretty much universally bad design moves, like limited natural light, confusing circulation, and cheap finishes. Of course, poor maintenance can make almost any building pretty dank before too long.

wbl 10y ago

It sends a message about what we value. Lawyers wear suits and judges robes to impress upon everyone that what they do matters. A few marbel panels is a small price to raise people's respect for the law.

jschwartzi 10y ago
We decorate according to the import of the institution. Institutions that we value are ornately decorated, while institutions we would prefer to do without are hideous.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  Some examples of each?

rayiner 10y ago

My friend gave me a tour of the Supreme Court the other day. Apparently, each quadrant of the building is made with marble sources from the corresponding regions of the US, and the marble in the main courtroom is Italian. My first reaction was that that this building would never get built today. But I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. I think it's necessary symbolism. The rule of law works because we collectively agree to abide by the rulings of people who don't even have guns. Which is really incredible if you think about it: only in an advanced civilized society like ours can a tiny octogenarian woman like Justice Ginsberg wield the kind of power she does. The fancy marble edifices are part of how we express that collective commitment.

adrusi 10y ago
You forget about the clergy.
will_brown 10y ago
That is one gorgeous building. I have been twice and done official tours, I imagine a private tour is quite special. I have practiced in both Federal and Court courthouses in Florida, and have been fortunate enough to do the same pro hac vice in a few States. I have seen plenty of Nice County Courts (Palm Beach County is like a mirror image to a Federal Courthouse, though the rooms themselves are not comparable) and some very poor ones too, but I have never seen a poor Federal Courthouse, though they likely exist too. I guess part of my post is just imagining a NY Federal Judge's reaction entering a poor County Courthouse. While your position on necessary symbolism is well received (and I agree), I also think if, say, Bankruptcy Courts were removed from the Federal Courthouse and placed in County Courthouses (even poor ones) it would have little if any impact on the authority and function of that institution. Certainly I wouldn't extend that suggestion to the SCOTUS, though I would probably be intimidated by the bench no matter where they sat.
Noseshine 10y ago
> only in an advanced civilized society like ours can a tiny octogenarian woman like > Justice Ginsberg wield the kind of power she does Not really. In any society large enough to require a city and not just a village. Priests didn't have to be strong, neither did kings - a well-known example: http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/9742/20141021/real-king-tut-sick-crippled-ugly.htm http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/9742/20141021/real-k...

cmurf 10y ago

>Don't get me wrong it's a pleasure to practice in a gorgeous Federal Courthouse, complete with grand marble accents, but I'm of the opinion those types of luxuries are a waste of tax payer dollars. It'll last almost forever. See POS city buildings or annexes built in the last ~50 years. At a certain point all of it will will rot. There's no need to paint marble. And no matter how much you paint drywall, it'll still need painting again eventually and there's a limit at which point it increasing looks like junk. Carpeted public places? Gross. Marble everywhere, nice and clean.

will_brown 10y ago
The marble does last, but the Federal Courthouses must be restored and renovate like anything else. For example, the Miami Federal Courthouse has been under renovation for what feels like more than 2 years now. That gorgeous masonry work on the outside/facades over time crack and end up breaking off. Maybe the Miami courthouse is just a poor example of good masonry work, but I'm pretty sure it's not unusual for the beautiful masonry in DC to have to continually be attended to in order to avoid continued and further damage.
- cmurf 10y ago
  I suppose, and I'm all in favor of cost/benefit analysis where it makes more sense to replace rock buildings with something modern with a fixed lifespan. We're sorta stuck with these buildings due in part to the era in which they were built, and that razing them would cost a lot also.
lostlogin 10y ago
You don't have earthquakes and other geological excitement where you are I'm guessing. As much as I'd like more marble, the thought of its behaviour in an earthquake would make me less keen.

jrochkind1 10y ago

How many white men making more than, oh let's say, $70K a year get arrested for DUIs? I am confident the number is not insubstantial. How many get denied bail? I am confident the number is miniscule.

briandear 10y ago
Any facts to back that up? How about the numbers for non-white men making over $70k? Or women?
- jrochkind1 10y ago
  There are lots of studies showing racial disparities at all levels of the criminal justice process. I don't know if there are any of specificaly DUI's or even more specifically DUI bail. I would assume it is consistent, but if you have any studies feel free to share. I think the scenario of a DUI being talked about was interesting, because in our stereotypes wealthy white men DUI plenty too. I think the statistics show that DUI is one of the few crimes that there is relatively little racial disparity in arrests, probably because it's a lot less subjective. I do know some white people who have been arrested for DUI, all of them were let out on affordable bail prior to trial, none of them served any prison time.