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It might have an earth-like planet in terms of orbit and composition, but I highly doubt that it would have life on it. Proxima Centauri is a flare-type star,

It might have an earth-like planet in terms of orbit and composition, but I highly doubt that it would have life on it. Proxima Centauri is a flare-type star, meaning that it it unpredictably brightens across its entire spectrum from infrared to x-ray. A planet would have to have a really thick atmosphere to protect against that, and a thick atmosphere can easily run away like Venus. Without a thick atmosphere, any burgeoning life would have to deal with random bursts of energy that could cause damage to that lifes equivalent of genetic coding.

whatshisface 10y ago
There's no thick atmosphere like ten feet of water. The frequency absorption of water has a small window around visible light and a sold wall around it. [1] Maybe the danger of building telescopes on the surface (and the rapid attenuation of their home medium) is why they haven't built any radios to chat with us. ;) [1]http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/watabs.html http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/watabs.h...
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Techonlogical society can't develop under water.
  - whatshisface 10y ago
    You can have culture, tools and electrochemistry underwater.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      You can't have fire, basic tools maybe, more than that not really. Also doing chemistry underwater is pretty neat impossible. Sure we can do it today, but incremental development is very unlikely. There is a good chance that any technological species we need will be quite close to us because there are certain criteria that are likely to be met which are pretty universal.
      - mirkules 10y ago
        You can have fire underwater, take for example Magnesium torches. Knowing what we know now about technology, it is difficult to imagine getting to this point underwater. But imagine a life form that lived in these conditions from the beginning, and perhaps having tools and doing chemistry may not be so far fetched after all.
        dogma1138 10y ago
        Again you are extrapolating the wrong things. Can't have incremental development underwater. Magnesium torches have thier own oxidizer. Find a way to refine magnesium underwater. I can imagine a lot of things but it doesn't mean it's possible. Technological life forms are going to be pretty similar to us. Sight, fine motor skills and various other aspects are going to be pretty close.
        germinalphrase 10y ago
        Why must they be similar to us? For instance, I completely accept that a sightless entity, as we have sight, could develop a technological culture.
        dogma1138 10y ago
        Because you can break down the "required" biological factors and environmental factors for a "technological intelligence", nothing says you can't have a super advanced species of dolphins with complex language, society and philosophy (although philosophy is somewhat limited by scientific progress) but they are quite unlikely to be a technological society. Here are a few examples: 1) Sight is almost mandatory to be in the visible or near visible (near IR is ok, near UV is possible but pretty unlikely) part of the spectrum for a technologically advanced species to develop. One can also put an effective lower limit on the optical resolution of sight which is favorite or required for enabling higher intelligence, as well as the fact that a technologically advanced species is more likely to be multichromatic than monochromatic. Sight is pretty integral into intelligence development, from looking at the stars to seeing the colors of a rainbow, to developing tools and peaking into the microscopic and macroscopic world. A species whose sight is based echolocation for example is unlikely to gain sufficient information from the environment to develop high intelligence, and more than that they are quite unlikely to develop complex tools and things like microscopes, telescopes, laser and many other things would be pretty much "inaccessible" to them directly. Echolocation can also hinder or prevent the development of written languages and written language is a very important part of the technological development of society because it is mandatory for low tech information archiving which allows the society to save information between generations. 2) Fine motor skills this puts some base line requirements for appendages a few very nimble tentacles are ok, hands with nimble fingers are great, claws and hooves on the other hand are not. This is because you need to be able to develop very fine tools in order to advance your technology 5 fingers with opposable thumbs might not be a strict requirement but you unlikely to see crab people with only crude claws for grabbing and manipulating things. 3) Land dwelling, land dwelling is almost a must for a progressive incremental development of technology, tool making, fire, projectiles, chemistry, flight, electronics all of these are almost impossible to be developed while submerge. A sufficiently advanced species can compensate by creating "dry" areas under the ocean, but incremental development is near impossible. No meteors, no lighting strikes, and while thermal vents can produce some heat you aren't going to be lighting fire, smelting metal, not to mention building LED's under water. 4) Planetary resources and mineral composition slightly less important but also quite important for higher technological advancements fossil fuels in any forms are going to be pretty important as an energy source, it's unlikely that you'll be able to jump from slavery to fusion without having some energy sources in the middle, you can somewhat compensate with biomass fuels but fossil fuels (doesn't have to be oil) are pretty important. As far as more advanced technologies than the availability of light metals such as aluminum and titanium might be somewhat important as well as "rare earth" elements which are used to make semiconductors. If you somehow evolve on a planet that doesn't have the required resources to build semiconductors (unlikely but somewhat possible) you are some what unlikely to go much beyond the mid industrial phase, given enough time you might be able to compensate and have some steampunk rocketry and tiny electromechanical computers but don't discount how important solid state computers are for technological advancement. 5) Gravity there is an upper limit on the how strong the gravity can be for technological society to develop also with gravity going much beyond 1.5-2 earth's technological advancement becomes less likely both because the implication it would have the physiology of the species that develop under such conditions and because it makes projectiles, flight, and rocketry less likely or even impossible which sets a higher limit on how much a society can advance or at least at what rate. And there are many other factors that have certain limitations or highly favorable states that need to be met for technological advancement. If we take what we know about evolution, especially converging evolution, what we know is required to build or achieve certain technological advancement and what conditions are required for those things to be likely to occur you get a situation where while life can take any shape form or size it's considerably likely that if one day a spaceship lands and a few E.T. are going to come out of it they would be considerably more similar to us than to a cockroach, snake, turtle, crab or any other shape or form you can imagine life can create, at least externally.
  - kyriakos 10y ago
    Life doesn't always mean intelligent advanced civilisation.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      No it doesn't, but it has to be intelligent to build telescopes read the parent comment :)
  - Eerie 10y ago
    You can produce gas underwater, though, and build things inside a gas bubble.
  - Teever 10y ago
    Why? Why do you believe that and what evidence do you have to back up this assertion? Why can't a semiaquatic species that takes to the waters for shelter during a flare event develop technology? We have aquatic creatures that can generate electricity on our planet. That's pretty crazy for us. What if it was the norm on another planet? What would the implications for the development of a technological society be in that envolutionary environment? The assertion that technological society can't develop under water or that fire is a prerequisite for a techological society is too anthropocentric for my liking.
erdevs 10y ago
This seems like an important filter when describing the potential for life on a planet. Is it part of the normal discussion when exploring for planets that might have life?
BlanketLogic 10y ago
> Without a thick atmosphere, any burgeoning life would have to deal with random bursts of energy that could cause damage to that lifes equivalent of genetic coding. Is having a thick atmosphere a necessary condition for life? Is it not possible for a mutation to result in a 'thick skinned' life form - one that relies on its exo-skeleton/skin to withstand the drastic changes? Or a color-changing 'plant' that evolved to do ultra-fast-photo synthesis when needed and move into a dormant mode, when not? Such a thing would allow such plants and animals to move out of the seas and go onto dominate the land. (Assuming, of course that there is life underwater)

whatshisface 10y ago

There's no thick atmosphere like ten feet of water. The frequency absorption of water has a small window around visible light and a sold wall around it. [1] Maybe the danger of building telescopes on the surface (and the rapid attenuation of their home medium) is why they haven't built any radios to chat with us. ;) [1]http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/watabs.html http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/watabs.h...

dogma1138 10y ago
Techonlogical society can't develop under water.
- whatshisface 10y ago
  You can have culture, tools and electrochemistry underwater.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    You can't have fire, basic tools maybe, more than that not really. Also doing chemistry underwater is pretty neat impossible. Sure we can do it today, but incremental development is very unlikely. There is a good chance that any technological species we need will be quite close to us because there are certain criteria that are likely to be met which are pretty universal.
    - mirkules 10y ago
      You can have fire underwater, take for example Magnesium torches. Knowing what we know now about technology, it is difficult to imagine getting to this point underwater. But imagine a life form that lived in these conditions from the beginning, and perhaps having tools and doing chemistry may not be so far fetched after all.
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        Again you are extrapolating the wrong things. Can't have incremental development underwater. Magnesium torches have thier own oxidizer. Find a way to refine magnesium underwater. I can imagine a lot of things but it doesn't mean it's possible. Technological life forms are going to be pretty similar to us. Sight, fine motor skills and various other aspects are going to be pretty close.
        germinalphrase 10y ago
        Why must they be similar to us? For instance, I completely accept that a sightless entity, as we have sight, could develop a technological culture.
        dogma1138 10y ago
        Because you can break down the "required" biological factors and environmental factors for a "technological intelligence", nothing says you can't have a super advanced species of dolphins with complex language, society and philosophy (although philosophy is somewhat limited by scientific progress) but they are quite unlikely to be a technological society. Here are a few examples: 1) Sight is almost mandatory to be in the visible or near visible (near IR is ok, near UV is possible but pretty unlikely) part of the spectrum for a technologically advanced species to develop. One can also put an effective lower limit on the optical resolution of sight which is favorite or required for enabling higher intelligence, as well as the fact that a technologically advanced species is more likely to be multichromatic than monochromatic. Sight is pretty integral into intelligence development, from looking at the stars to seeing the colors of a rainbow, to developing tools and peaking into the microscopic and macroscopic world. A species whose sight is based echolocation for example is unlikely to gain sufficient information from the environment to develop high intelligence, and more than that they are quite unlikely to develop complex tools and things like microscopes, telescopes, laser and many other things would be pretty much "inaccessible" to them directly. Echolocation can also hinder or prevent the development of written languages and written language is a very important part of the technological development of society because it is mandatory for low tech information archiving which allows the society to save information between generations. 2) Fine motor skills this puts some base line requirements for appendages a few very nimble tentacles are ok, hands with nimble fingers are great, claws and hooves on the other hand are not. This is because you need to be able to develop very fine tools in order to advance your technology 5 fingers with opposable thumbs might not be a strict requirement but you unlikely to see crab people with only crude claws for grabbing and manipulating things. 3) Land dwelling, land dwelling is almost a must for a progressive incremental development of technology, tool making, fire, projectiles, chemistry, flight, electronics all of these are almost impossible to be developed while submerge. A sufficiently advanced species can compensate by creating "dry" areas under the ocean, but incremental development is near impossible. No meteors, no lighting strikes, and while thermal vents can produce some heat you aren't going to be lighting fire, smelting metal, not to mention building LED's under water. 4) Planetary resources and mineral composition slightly less important but also quite important for higher technological advancements fossil fuels in any forms are going to be pretty important as an energy source, it's unlikely that you'll be able to jump from slavery to fusion without having some energy sources in the middle, you can somewhat compensate with biomass fuels but fossil fuels (doesn't have to be oil) are pretty important. As far as more advanced technologies than the availability of light metals such as aluminum and titanium might be somewhat important as well as "rare earth" elements which are used to make semiconductors. If you somehow evolve on a planet that doesn't have the required resources to build semiconductors (unlikely but somewhat possible) you are some what unlikely to go much beyond the mid industrial phase, given enough time you might be able to compensate and have some steampunk rocketry and tiny electromechanical computers but don't discount how important solid state computers are for technological advancement. 5) Gravity there is an upper limit on the how strong the gravity can be for technological society to develop also with gravity going much beyond 1.5-2 earth's technological advancement becomes less likely both because the implication it would have the physiology of the species that develop under such conditions and because it makes projectiles, flight, and rocketry less likely or even impossible which sets a higher limit on how much a society can advance or at least at what rate. And there are many other factors that have certain limitations or highly favorable states that need to be met for technological advancement. If we take what we know about evolution, especially converging evolution, what we know is required to build or achieve certain technological advancement and what conditions are required for those things to be likely to occur you get a situation where while life can take any shape form or size it's considerably likely that if one day a spaceship lands and a few E.T. are going to come out of it they would be considerably more similar to us than to a cockroach, snake, turtle, crab or any other shape or form you can imagine life can create, at least externally.
- kyriakos 10y ago
  Life doesn't always mean intelligent advanced civilisation.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    No it doesn't, but it has to be intelligent to build telescopes read the parent comment :)
- Eerie 10y ago
  You can produce gas underwater, though, and build things inside a gas bubble.
- Teever 10y ago
  Why? Why do you believe that and what evidence do you have to back up this assertion? Why can't a semiaquatic species that takes to the waters for shelter during a flare event develop technology? We have aquatic creatures that can generate electricity on our planet. That's pretty crazy for us. What if it was the norm on another planet? What would the implications for the development of a technological society be in that envolutionary environment? The assertion that technological society can't develop under water or that fire is a prerequisite for a techological society is too anthropocentric for my liking.

erdevs 10y ago

This seems like an important filter when describing the potential for life on a planet. Is it part of the normal discussion when exploring for planets that might have life?

BlanketLogic 10y ago

> Without a thick atmosphere, any burgeoning life would have to deal with random bursts of energy that could cause damage to that lifes equivalent of genetic coding. Is having a thick atmosphere a necessary condition for life? Is it not possible for a mutation to result in a 'thick skinned' life form - one that relies on its exo-skeleton/skin to withstand the drastic changes? Or a color-changing 'plant' that evolved to do ultra-fast-photo synthesis when needed and move into a dormant mode, when not? Such a thing would allow such plants and animals to move out of the seas and go onto dominate the land. (Assuming, of course that there is life underwater)