8 ms·

This is all good if your goal is weight loss. However weight loss doesn't necessarily means higher fitness. Glycogen is fundamental if you do sports, and exerci

by tunnuz 10y ago

This is all good if your goal is weight loss. However weight loss doesn't necessarily means higher fitness. Glycogen is fundamental if you do sports, and exercise is a major ingredient in getting fit. If I read correctly, exercise was not a big part of your experiment, how would you suggest modifying the experiment to accommodate one's exercising needs? On a side note, I reached a similar conclusion on the role of "carbs at night", sleeping, and fats, and I read this interesting article https://aeon.co/essays/hunger-is-psychological-and-dieting-only-makes-it-worse https://aeon.co/essays/hunger-is-psychological-and-dieting-o... on the importance, for effective weight loss, of feeling satisfied (I believe there is also a reference to the relationship between eating fats and feeling satisfied).

philip1209 10y ago
I'm in ketosis. I can tell when the glycogen in my liver depletes. I hit a wall and can't keep going. I find that it has to do with intensity - for low intensity exercise, I can go forever. When I have to exert more (like running up an SF hill), it depletes me more. To fix this, you more or less have to keep intensity lower. I think that's why it works well for bicyclists who can change gears. Good news is that, after endurance exercise, you can replenish glycogen stores - meaning you can have more sugar than normal without leaving ketosis.
- Axsuul 10y ago
  Have you keto-adapted?
- MicroBerto 10y ago
  Look into BHB supplements. We're doing a lot of research on them and they may be just what you're looking for.
  - philip1209 10y ago
    Yes. I have MCT oil every day, but haven't experimented with exogenous ketones.
kevindeasis 10y ago
Doesn't it depend on what type of sport you play? If you're doing marathons wouldn't ketosis work? and if you're doing high intensity, and short bursts ketosis might not be the best choice?
toomuchtodo 10y ago
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24979615 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24979615 TL;DR A ketogenic diet is net-positive for aerobic exercise activities.
- CuriouslyC 10y ago
  You will see greater endurance adaptations in response to exercise in the short term on a ketogenic diet, though this effect decreases the longer you maintain the diet. The downside to a ketogenic diet is your total training volume for work above the lactate threshold is more limited. As a result, high level athletes tend to spend the majority of their time consuming a carb-rich diet, then switch to a ketogenic diet for 2-3 weeks prior to competition. During this low carb period, they just focus on a very high volume of low/moderate intensity work. Finally, 2-3 days before competition, they will carb-load to glycogen super-compensate, getting the best of both worlds.
elchief 10y ago
How did people fight off lions before there was sugar and pasta?
- unlikelymordant 10y ago
  They got carbs from fruits, starchy root vegetables and whole grains. Ketosis isn't some magic thing that all our ancestors did all the time.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
tomp 10y ago
Losing weight means that your muscles (and also your bones) need to carry less weight, so while technically you're not getting more fit, the fitness you have becomes more effective. So losing excess fat is definitely one of the most important steps towards becoming fit. If anything, I would question how healthy ketosis is, long term... But I'm pretty sure it's way healthier than any processed-food diet typical in the west...
will_brown 10y ago
I can give a personal anecdote. About 3 years ago I began experiments with paleo, I am 5'6-5'7 started over 190lbs and in about 4 months was down to 152lbs. Weekends I would have cheat meals usually a pizza day and burger/fry day. Around then I began running for the first time in my life. I started out the first 3 months at 1 mile everyday, which I thought was a lot until a high school buddy laughed when I told him. I stopped eating paleo and increased to 3 miles about 5 times a week. This went on for about a month, when I decided to register for a half marathon and started a basic 12 week training. I tried to restart paleo, but about a month in my legs began to hurt which I attributed to lack of carbs so I again got off. During Summer in Miami I decreased the mileage due to the heat and would get back on paleo still weekend cheat days. During any of that time I didn't know about Ketosis or I never experienced anything I would call Ketosis. Fast forward to this year, I completed the Disney Goofy (half day1, full day2), then another 2 halfs during the spring. I was back to about 170, and despite running more mileage than I ever had, I was not pleased with my physique, feeling I looked better even at the same weight while on paleo. So I decided after my last half of the season, I would try to go full paleo without any cheat meals on the weekend with the goal of 5 mile runs 4-5 times per week. I just completed a half the weekend before and Tuesday I did my 5 mile on paleo and felt fine/normal. Wednesday/Thursday during my runs I got light head and basically though I might blackout, never experienced that before, but I stuck with it. Then by the 3rd week, I honestly felt I was tapping into a different energy source, not that I was running faster but it was just a different feeling and it was amazing. Despite having combined paleo and running before, my body had never responded like this before. Having read up on high endurance athletes who do paleo after the fact, I believe what was happening is my body was tapping into and burning fat as its main source of energy and I also learned about Ketosis at that time (I believe/understand these to be one in the same, but they may not be). I will note, even my mind seemed different as I began to really think/feel that sugars were a poison and I was disgusted by the thought of breads/sugars, meaning I didn't even want cheat days on the weekend. This lasted for about 2 months without a cheat day and eventually there was a craving for carbs and I had no hesitation about giving in, so I am back off the paleo, and basically the very next run my body was not performing the same as it was. I look forward to implementing a strict paleo diet again without cheat days when the weather cools and I will try to build my mileage up in that state for the next running season.
hoodwink 10y ago
Glycogen is necessary for high intensity exercise, but you are mistaken that carbs are necessary for glycogen. When you are keto-adapted and eat low carb, two things happen that most people overlook. First, you get enough "trace carbs" in your diet that you have glycogen in your muscles for exercise. Second, your body can synthesize glycogen! I've eaten LCHF for 10 years and regularly exercise with CrossFit (arguably the highest intensity workout most people will do) and yoga intermixed with athletic activities like hiking, skiing, and surfing. My suggestion is to properly keto-adapt over 3 to 6 weeks before concluding that you can't exercise without eating carbs.
- CuriouslyC 10y ago
  The rate of glycogen synthesis is directly mediated by glucose availability, and the glycogen synthase enzyme is also activated by an insulin induced signalling cascade. Glycogen replenishment still occurs on a low carb diet, it just takes longer. If you only do crossfit every 2-3 days, and rotate the exercises you do somewhat (as is typical at most boxes) you might not notice a big difference between a low carb and higher carb diet. If you train daily and you're doing similar movements every day, you will definitely notice a difference. Since that is pretty much the modus operandi of serious athletes, that is where the whole "athletes don't do well on keto" idea comes from; it definitely doesn't apply to your garden variety recreational athlete though.
PerfectElement 10y ago
Another anecdote. I tried keto on and off for 2 years while trying to achieve my former triathlete performance. I felt good at the beginning; lost some weight and felt more energy, but it quickly declined and I was never able to perform well. Last year I was introduced to books like Finding Ultra, Whole and Proteinaholic, and went on a high carb diet. Today my diet is based on beans, lentils, potatoes and fruits and I'm performing 15-20% better than my previous peak from 15 years ago (I'm 37 now). As a bonus, with the amount of fibber I consume, I never had digestive issues again.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  What's your caloric intake, and how do you feel as far as satiety? I don't always enjoy keto-ish food, but fatty stuff is so filling so fast.
- spearo77 10y ago
  I was in Ketosis for 12 months, and the last 6 months was training for my first Ironman (age 37). I would say most of the benefit from Ketosis while training is the recovery. I had plenty of energy for my long rides, but the lower inflammation was making recovery quicker. My race was cancelled (Tahoe) and I went to Spain two weeks later and did Barcelona instead.. 10h and 3 minutes. Pretty happy with sub-5h for the bike leg!
- mrfusion 10y ago
  Any good ways to prepare lentils?
  - Joof 10y ago
    Too many to count. I like allrecipes or some website like that. Dal Bhat is one of my favorites after living in Colorado.
  - austinjp 10y ago
    In addition to Joof's comment, remember there are several types of lentil. Red lentils, puy lentils, all delicious in an appropriate recipe.

by tunnuz 10y ago

philip1209 10y ago

I'm in ketosis. I can tell when the glycogen in my liver depletes. I hit a wall and can't keep going. I find that it has to do with intensity - for low intensity exercise, I can go forever. When I have to exert more (like running up an SF hill), it depletes me more. To fix this, you more or less have to keep intensity lower. I think that's why it works well for bicyclists who can change gears. Good news is that, after endurance exercise, you can replenish glycogen stores - meaning you can have more sugar than normal without leaving ketosis.

Axsuul 10y ago
Have you keto-adapted?
MicroBerto 10y ago
Look into BHB supplements. We're doing a lot of research on them and they may be just what you're looking for.
- philip1209 10y ago
  Yes. I have MCT oil every day, but haven't experimented with exogenous ketones.

kevindeasis 10y ago

Doesn't it depend on what type of sport you play? If you're doing marathons wouldn't ketosis work? and if you're doing high intensity, and short bursts ketosis might not be the best choice?

toomuchtodo 10y ago

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24979615 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24979615 TL;DR A ketogenic diet is net-positive for aerobic exercise activities.

CuriouslyC 10y ago
You will see greater endurance adaptations in response to exercise in the short term on a ketogenic diet, though this effect decreases the longer you maintain the diet. The downside to a ketogenic diet is your total training volume for work above the lactate threshold is more limited. As a result, high level athletes tend to spend the majority of their time consuming a carb-rich diet, then switch to a ketogenic diet for 2-3 weeks prior to competition. During this low carb period, they just focus on a very high volume of low/moderate intensity work. Finally, 2-3 days before competition, they will carb-load to glycogen super-compensate, getting the best of both worlds.

elchief 10y ago

How did people fight off lions before there was sugar and pasta?

unlikelymordant 10y ago
They got carbs from fruits, starchy root vegetables and whole grains. Ketosis isn't some magic thing that all our ancestors did all the time.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

tomp 10y ago

Losing weight means that your muscles (and also your bones) need to carry less weight, so while technically you're not getting more fit, the fitness you have becomes more effective. So losing excess fat is definitely one of the most important steps towards becoming fit. If anything, I would question how healthy ketosis is, long term... But I'm pretty sure it's way healthier than any processed-food diet typical in the west...

will_brown 10y ago

I can give a personal anecdote. About 3 years ago I began experiments with paleo, I am 5'6-5'7 started over 190lbs and in about 4 months was down to 152lbs. Weekends I would have cheat meals usually a pizza day and burger/fry day. Around then I began running for the first time in my life. I started out the first 3 months at 1 mile everyday, which I thought was a lot until a high school buddy laughed when I told him. I stopped eating paleo and increased to 3 miles about 5 times a week. This went on for about a month, when I decided to register for a half marathon and started a basic 12 week training. I tried to restart paleo, but about a month in my legs began to hurt which I attributed to lack of carbs so I again got off. During Summer in Miami I decreased the mileage due to the heat and would get back on paleo still weekend cheat days. During any of that time I didn't know about Ketosis or I never experienced anything I would call Ketosis. Fast forward to this year, I completed the Disney Goofy (half day1, full day2), then another 2 halfs during the spring. I was back to about 170, and despite running more mileage than I ever had, I was not pleased with my physique, feeling I looked better even at the same weight while on paleo. So I decided after my last half of the season, I would try to go full paleo without any cheat meals on the weekend with the goal of 5 mile runs 4-5 times per week. I just completed a half the weekend before and Tuesday I did my 5 mile on paleo and felt fine/normal. Wednesday/Thursday during my runs I got light head and basically though I might blackout, never experienced that before, but I stuck with it. Then by the 3rd week, I honestly felt I was tapping into a different energy source, not that I was running faster but it was just a different feeling and it was amazing. Despite having combined paleo and running before, my body had never responded like this before. Having read up on high endurance athletes who do paleo after the fact, I believe what was happening is my body was tapping into and burning fat as its main source of energy and I also learned about Ketosis at that time (I believe/understand these to be one in the same, but they may not be). I will note, even my mind seemed different as I began to really think/feel that sugars were a poison and I was disgusted by the thought of breads/sugars, meaning I didn't even want cheat days on the weekend. This lasted for about 2 months without a cheat day and eventually there was a craving for carbs and I had no hesitation about giving in, so I am back off the paleo, and basically the very next run my body was not performing the same as it was. I look forward to implementing a strict paleo diet again without cheat days when the weather cools and I will try to build my mileage up in that state for the next running season.

hoodwink 10y ago

Glycogen is necessary for high intensity exercise, but you are mistaken that carbs are necessary for glycogen. When you are keto-adapted and eat low carb, two things happen that most people overlook. First, you get enough "trace carbs" in your diet that you have glycogen in your muscles for exercise. Second, your body can synthesize glycogen! I've eaten LCHF for 10 years and regularly exercise with CrossFit (arguably the highest intensity workout most people will do) and yoga intermixed with athletic activities like hiking, skiing, and surfing. My suggestion is to properly keto-adapt over 3 to 6 weeks before concluding that you can't exercise without eating carbs.

CuriouslyC 10y ago
The rate of glycogen synthesis is directly mediated by glucose availability, and the glycogen synthase enzyme is also activated by an insulin induced signalling cascade. Glycogen replenishment still occurs on a low carb diet, it just takes longer. If you only do crossfit every 2-3 days, and rotate the exercises you do somewhat (as is typical at most boxes) you might not notice a big difference between a low carb and higher carb diet. If you train daily and you're doing similar movements every day, you will definitely notice a difference. Since that is pretty much the modus operandi of serious athletes, that is where the whole "athletes don't do well on keto" idea comes from; it definitely doesn't apply to your garden variety recreational athlete though.

PerfectElement 10y ago

Another anecdote. I tried keto on and off for 2 years while trying to achieve my former triathlete performance. I felt good at the beginning; lost some weight and felt more energy, but it quickly declined and I was never able to perform well. Last year I was introduced to books like Finding Ultra, Whole and Proteinaholic, and went on a high carb diet. Today my diet is based on beans, lentils, potatoes and fruits and I'm performing 15-20% better than my previous peak from 15 years ago (I'm 37 now). As a bonus, with the amount of fibber I consume, I never had digestive issues again.

MichaelGG 10y ago
What's your caloric intake, and how do you feel as far as satiety? I don't always enjoy keto-ish food, but fatty stuff is so filling so fast.
spearo77 10y ago
I was in Ketosis for 12 months, and the last 6 months was training for my first Ironman (age 37). I would say most of the benefit from Ketosis while training is the recovery. I had plenty of energy for my long rides, but the lower inflammation was making recovery quicker. My race was cancelled (Tahoe) and I went to Spain two weeks later and did Barcelona instead.. 10h and 3 minutes. Pretty happy with sub-5h for the bike leg!
mrfusion 10y ago
Any good ways to prepare lentils?
- Joof 10y ago
  Too many to count. I like allrecipes or some website like that. Dal Bhat is one of my favorites after living in Colorado.
- austinjp 10y ago
  In addition to Joof's comment, remember there are several types of lentil. Red lentils, puy lentils, all delicious in an appropriate recipe.