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Yes, and I'm arguing that it's a poor metaphor. I think the metaphor you're looking for is that they are journeymen, and the time in the Bay Area their journey

by dalke 10y ago

Yes, and I'm arguing that it's a poor metaphor. I think the metaphor you're looking for is that they are journeymen, and the time in the Bay Area their journeyman years. In the college town metaphor, most of the students are working towards their bachelor degree, not PhD. Have you ever been in a PhD program? Do you know many PhD researchers who did not end up in the Bay Area? Could you ask them if they think their PhD work was equivalent to 10 years as a software developer?

chmaynard 10y ago
My father was an organic chemist with a Ph.D. from Yale. After earning his degree, he moved to Delaware to work for DuPont, along with thousands of other scientists. He was paid very well in comparison to the average blue collar or even white collar worker in the same city, so I think his Ph.D. paid off handsomely. My parents didn't wait to start a family, purchase property, and start building personal wealth. They got involved in community affairs and local politics. They put down roots and had a balanced life. In contrast, many Bay Area tech workers are living like extended adolescents, living in rental housing and working on a "corporate campus" for a company that is essentially in loco parentis. Typically they are not engaged in local community affairs or politics. Is this not somewhat like college?
- dalke 10y ago
  The Baby Boomer era is past. What you describe of your father's experience no longer really exists. If that's the only person you know, then your impressions of the career possibilities of a PhD are seriously out of date. In your father's era, many blue collar workers could also "start a family, purchase property, and start building personal wealth" with their jobs, including straight out of high school. For that matter, the programmers of the 1960s and 1970s also had little problem getting a solid job. Nowadays with a PhD in chemistry you often end up doing a postdoc or two for several years. As two data points, https://sankirnam.wordpress.com/category/chemistry-jobs-2/ https://sankirnam.wordpress.com/category/chemistry-jobs-2/ : > I didn’t do a postdoc because I wanted to get an industry job, but now it appears that a postdoc is necessary – and this is information that I only found out after graduating. That in turn points to http://justlikecooking.blogspot.com/2016/05/postdoc-required-check-job-ads.html http://justlikecooking.blogspot.com/2016/05/postdoc-required... , which points out job ads for industry which require post-doc experience. An organic chemist now likely will be in the early 30s before being able to do the things your father did immediately after graduating. And without having to deal with issues like http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj7568-279a http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj... or http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj6924-766a http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj... . Yes, postdocs often have roommates: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=postdoc+roommate&t=ffsb&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=postdoc+roommate&t=ffsb&ia=web . You end with "Is this not somewhat like college". Absolutely, I agree. My point is that what you describe is much more like the college experience than it is the PhD experience. Or like a journeyman, who also, at least traditionally, does not 'put down roots'.

by dalke 10y ago

chmaynard 10y ago

My father was an organic chemist with a Ph.D. from Yale. After earning his degree, he moved to Delaware to work for DuPont, along with thousands of other scientists. He was paid very well in comparison to the average blue collar or even white collar worker in the same city, so I think his Ph.D. paid off handsomely. My parents didn't wait to start a family, purchase property, and start building personal wealth. They got involved in community affairs and local politics. They put down roots and had a balanced life. In contrast, many Bay Area tech workers are living like extended adolescents, living in rental housing and working on a "corporate campus" for a company that is essentially in loco parentis. Typically they are not engaged in local community affairs or politics. Is this not somewhat like college?

dalke 10y ago
The Baby Boomer era is past. What you describe of your father's experience no longer really exists. If that's the only person you know, then your impressions of the career possibilities of a PhD are seriously out of date. In your father's era, many blue collar workers could also "start a family, purchase property, and start building personal wealth" with their jobs, including straight out of high school. For that matter, the programmers of the 1960s and 1970s also had little problem getting a solid job. Nowadays with a PhD in chemistry you often end up doing a postdoc or two for several years. As two data points, https://sankirnam.wordpress.com/category/chemistry-jobs-2/ https://sankirnam.wordpress.com/category/chemistry-jobs-2/ : > I didn’t do a postdoc because I wanted to get an industry job, but now it appears that a postdoc is necessary – and this is information that I only found out after graduating. That in turn points to http://justlikecooking.blogspot.com/2016/05/postdoc-required-check-job-ads.html http://justlikecooking.blogspot.com/2016/05/postdoc-required... , which points out job ads for industry which require post-doc experience. An organic chemist now likely will be in the early 30s before being able to do the things your father did immediately after graduating. And without having to deal with issues like http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj7568-279a http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj... or http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj6924-766a http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj... . Yes, postdocs often have roommates: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=postdoc+roommate&t=ffsb&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=postdoc+roommate&t=ffsb&ia=web . You end with "Is this not somewhat like college". Absolutely, I agree. My point is that what you describe is much more like the college experience than it is the PhD experience. Or like a journeyman, who also, at least traditionally, does not 'put down roots'.