8 ms·

This is a fairly boring example of the typical mind fallacy. Or, the typical body fallacy, if you wish. I exercise and it doesn't have any significant effect on

This is a fairly boring example of the typical mind fallacy. Or, the typical body fallacy, if you wish. I exercise and it doesn't have any significant effect on "feeling like shit" for me. I sometimes lose mental clarity from exercise, feel more tired, have less energy. The benefits are absolutely not obvious in my case. Unfortunately, this fallacy seems to be present every single time this topic is brought up. It's very hard to discuss fitness without moralistic arguments showing up, which is why the field is wrought with so much misinformation and cargo-cultism.

omarchowdhury 10y ago
How do you breathe when you exercise? What exercise are you doing?
- projektir 10y ago
  Depends on the exercise and the situation. I've done various things ranging from running, biking, weightlifting to more organized things like lacrosse, TKD, and, currently, kickboxing.
WalterSear 10y ago
No offense, and knowing nothing about your situation, the experience you describe suggests to me that you are so out of shape, you haven't experienced the point where the sense of well-being starts to move the other way. I've been there, and I've gotten over that hump (and fallen back into it, several times), but it took a lot more work than most people seem to assume it will. Not in terms of effort - if anything, overdoing intensity early on can be sabotaging, since it >will< make you feel like shit, but in terms of consistency. People often throw themselves headlong into an exercise program, overdo it, and make themselves feel like crap, fall off the wagon, and never really experience the benefits, where what really works is consistent, constant improvement. High intensity intervale training, for example, really isn't all that 'High Intensity' if done correctly. The goal is to keep your heart rate at about ~80% (I forget the number) of maximum. This is actually quite a achievable with only slightly more effort than feels 'easy', but because of the words 'High Intensity' (and a lot of shitty journalism around the concept) people who aren't actively monitoring their heart rate throw themselves at it so hard that can't sustain the effort for more than a dozen paces. The key thing is to be putting yourself just at the edge of discomfort, consistently, for months. Just a few more pounts in your 5x5 weightlifting routine, or simply keeping your HR monitor at 150 bpm or so for a minute at a time.
- projektir 10y ago
  > No offense, and knowing nothing about your situation, the experience you describe suggests to me that you are so out of shape, you haven't experienced the point where the sense of well-being starts to move the other way. Explain to me how this is a falsifiable claim.
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Hydraulix989 10y ago
Accuses OP of moral superiority, condescendingly quotes "feeling like shit."
- projektir 10y ago
  I don't see what's condescending in it? I see it more condescending to assume everyone who doesn't exercise just likes "feeling like shit". I think that's a very unhelpful way to discuss things. I put it in quotes because it's not precise. I don't know what it means for you, which particular things you classify as "feeling like shit due to not exercising enough".
  - rjbwork 10y ago
    It may be condescending, but I think it's correct. I'm a pretty overweight guy who has dropped over 35 pounds in the last year. I pretty quickly noticed an increase in energy and mood. I've gained some back recently due to injury and not exercising, and I pretty quickly noticed a return of worse mood and energy levels. Maybe it's just true for most people, but not everyone?
    - projektir 10y ago
      It would seem more likely to me that you are feeling better/worse because you lost/gained weight, not because of exercise. Weight gain is pretty well studied and is connected to a lot of bad things, and, from everything I've seen, has a much bigger effect than lack of exercise on the average person. I've never been overweight and exercise is not really related to weight control for me. Most people don't exercise in the first place, I don't know if we can say how much it helps most people vs us selecting for people it helps.
      - Hydraulix989 10y ago
        Denying that exercise is helpful to most people goes against scientific results in mainstream medicine in so many ways.
sharmi 10y ago
I do not know about your situation but I would like suggest something based on my experience. Would you be putting in late nights and working out? That makes you feel more tired. It is better to sleep and skip exercise rather than workout in a sleepless state. It worsens your health. Also not drinking enough water and staying hydrated can create a mental fog.
- alecdbrooks 10y ago
  I could be wrong, but I don't think projektir means they "feel like shit" even when they exercise. I think they mean they occasionally feel like shit after exercising, which obscures the benefit. If so, I'm in projektir's camp. I often feel better after exercising, but sometimes I feel worse. Also, I don't necessarily see a clear day-to-day improvement. There are definite health benefits to exercise for most people [0], but I don't think subjectively feeling better is necessarily as widespread as some exercise proponents think. [0]: Video summary of the evidence for exercise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFBBjynBpSw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFBBjynBpSw
  - projektir 10y ago
    I meant that I don't associate my non-exercising existence with "feeling like shit", nor do I find that exercising improves my existence to an extent far enough that I could call the previous existence "feeling like shit". I probably feel somewhat better after exercising in the long-run. But that's about it, somewhat. And most of it is extrinsic - not feeling winded is nice, having a lowered heart rate is nice. Other things have contributed a lot more to improving my general well-being than exercise.
- projektir 10y ago
  My exercise is scheduled, so if I am working late, I'd just have to miss it or do it another day. My exercise right now is either in the morning or shortly after work. I drink 32 oz of water during the day before exercise and then I try to drink the same amount after. I think the question of how much raw water one should drink per day is kind of disputed right now, though.
ysleepy 10y ago
Proof by anecdote. Nice. Your statement is derogatory and unsound. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but that does not invalidate his or mine. For me it took some time to get to a fitness level where running made me only more awake, alert and clear - without even a hint of tiredness.
- projektir 10y ago
  I'm arguing against a generalization. All it takes to disprove it is one anecdote. The typical mind fallacy is specifically the idea that your experience can be automatically generalized upon others, that everyone thinks and feels the same. I would have nothing against the OP if they just said that they feel like shit when they don't exercise, but they had to generalize on other people and make a judgment. I'm not sure how you see my statement as derogatory but not theirs?
ImTalking 10y ago
If you exercise and are more tired, then you need to eat more. And stay off the sugars and carbs.
- Chos89 10y ago
  What is wrong with carbs now?
  - ImTalking 10y ago
    Do not eat anything made of flour. Minimise daily carbs and have a periodic starch reload to refill glycogen levels.
    - Chos89 10y ago
      On the flour part we could maybe agree, but telling me that fruit is not good for me is just plain wrong.
      - ImTalking 10y ago
        Fruit is OK, you just need to go easy with it though. Most fruits are just big fructose bombs with very little nutrition. Berries are good.
- samuell 10y ago
  This was the case (being tired by training), and eating properly, in the proper time before exercies, was what totally changed the situation, for me. Not sure about the carbs though (except sugar, which I try to avoid taking in excess). I read up that before e.g. running, 3-4 hours before, I eat a heavy full-component meal, and 1-2 hours before, I eat something lighter, with mostly carbs. The effect is light night and day compared to when not thinking about the eating. Can't be reiterated enough, I think.
  - ImTalking 10y ago
    I agree... I always eat before exercising. I would, however, caution on a carb-heavy meal pre-workout. Studies have shown: 1) Consuming carbs pre-workout reduces the fat burned during workout. 2) Consuming protein pre-workout helps preserve muscle protein during exercise. 3) Consuming carbs pre-workout restrains growth hormone release. 4) Carbs elevate serotonin which increases exercise-related fatigue. 5) Higher fat meal will allow more free fatty acids for muscles, and will increase intramuscular triglyceride levels. All this stuff is from the best book out there: Natural Hormonal Enhancement by Rob Faigin.

omarchowdhury 10y ago

How do you breathe when you exercise? What exercise are you doing?

projektir 10y ago
Depends on the exercise and the situation. I've done various things ranging from running, biking, weightlifting to more organized things like lacrosse, TKD, and, currently, kickboxing.

WalterSear 10y ago

No offense, and knowing nothing about your situation, the experience you describe suggests to me that you are so out of shape, you haven't experienced the point where the sense of well-being starts to move the other way. I've been there, and I've gotten over that hump (and fallen back into it, several times), but it took a lot more work than most people seem to assume it will. Not in terms of effort - if anything, overdoing intensity early on can be sabotaging, since it >will< make you feel like shit, but in terms of consistency. People often throw themselves headlong into an exercise program, overdo it, and make themselves feel like crap, fall off the wagon, and never really experience the benefits, where what really works is consistent, constant improvement. High intensity intervale training, for example, really isn't all that 'High Intensity' if done correctly. The goal is to keep your heart rate at about ~80% (I forget the number) of maximum. This is actually quite a achievable with only slightly more effort than feels 'easy', but because of the words 'High Intensity' (and a lot of shitty journalism around the concept) people who aren't actively monitoring their heart rate throw themselves at it so hard that can't sustain the effort for more than a dozen paces. The key thing is to be putting yourself just at the edge of discomfort, consistently, for months. Just a few more pounts in your 5x5 weightlifting routine, or simply keeping your HR monitor at 150 bpm or so for a minute at a time.

projektir 10y ago
> No offense, and knowing nothing about your situation, the experience you describe suggests to me that you are so out of shape, you haven't experienced the point where the sense of well-being starts to move the other way. Explain to me how this is a falsifiable claim.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

Hydraulix989 10y ago

Accuses OP of moral superiority, condescendingly quotes "feeling like shit."

projektir 10y ago
I don't see what's condescending in it? I see it more condescending to assume everyone who doesn't exercise just likes "feeling like shit". I think that's a very unhelpful way to discuss things. I put it in quotes because it's not precise. I don't know what it means for you, which particular things you classify as "feeling like shit due to not exercising enough".
- rjbwork 10y ago
  It may be condescending, but I think it's correct. I'm a pretty overweight guy who has dropped over 35 pounds in the last year. I pretty quickly noticed an increase in energy and mood. I've gained some back recently due to injury and not exercising, and I pretty quickly noticed a return of worse mood and energy levels. Maybe it's just true for most people, but not everyone?
  - projektir 10y ago
    It would seem more likely to me that you are feeling better/worse because you lost/gained weight, not because of exercise. Weight gain is pretty well studied and is connected to a lot of bad things, and, from everything I've seen, has a much bigger effect than lack of exercise on the average person. I've never been overweight and exercise is not really related to weight control for me. Most people don't exercise in the first place, I don't know if we can say how much it helps most people vs us selecting for people it helps.
    - Hydraulix989 10y ago
      Denying that exercise is helpful to most people goes against scientific results in mainstream medicine in so many ways.

sharmi 10y ago

I do not know about your situation but I would like suggest something based on my experience. Would you be putting in late nights and working out? That makes you feel more tired. It is better to sleep and skip exercise rather than workout in a sleepless state. It worsens your health. Also not drinking enough water and staying hydrated can create a mental fog.

alecdbrooks 10y ago
I could be wrong, but I don't think projektir means they "feel like shit" even when they exercise. I think they mean they occasionally feel like shit after exercising, which obscures the benefit. If so, I'm in projektir's camp. I often feel better after exercising, but sometimes I feel worse. Also, I don't necessarily see a clear day-to-day improvement. There are definite health benefits to exercise for most people [0], but I don't think subjectively feeling better is necessarily as widespread as some exercise proponents think. [0]: Video summary of the evidence for exercise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFBBjynBpSw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFBBjynBpSw
- projektir 10y ago
  I meant that I don't associate my non-exercising existence with "feeling like shit", nor do I find that exercising improves my existence to an extent far enough that I could call the previous existence "feeling like shit". I probably feel somewhat better after exercising in the long-run. But that's about it, somewhat. And most of it is extrinsic - not feeling winded is nice, having a lowered heart rate is nice. Other things have contributed a lot more to improving my general well-being than exercise.
projektir 10y ago
My exercise is scheduled, so if I am working late, I'd just have to miss it or do it another day. My exercise right now is either in the morning or shortly after work. I drink 32 oz of water during the day before exercise and then I try to drink the same amount after. I think the question of how much raw water one should drink per day is kind of disputed right now, though.

ysleepy 10y ago

Proof by anecdote. Nice. Your statement is derogatory and unsound. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but that does not invalidate his or mine. For me it took some time to get to a fitness level where running made me only more awake, alert and clear - without even a hint of tiredness.

projektir 10y ago
I'm arguing against a generalization. All it takes to disprove it is one anecdote. The typical mind fallacy is specifically the idea that your experience can be automatically generalized upon others, that everyone thinks and feels the same. I would have nothing against the OP if they just said that they feel like shit when they don't exercise, but they had to generalize on other people and make a judgment. I'm not sure how you see my statement as derogatory but not theirs?

ImTalking 10y ago

If you exercise and are more tired, then you need to eat more. And stay off the sugars and carbs.

Chos89 10y ago
What is wrong with carbs now?
- ImTalking 10y ago
  Do not eat anything made of flour. Minimise daily carbs and have a periodic starch reload to refill glycogen levels.
  - Chos89 10y ago
    On the flour part we could maybe agree, but telling me that fruit is not good for me is just plain wrong.
    - ImTalking 10y ago
      Fruit is OK, you just need to go easy with it though. Most fruits are just big fructose bombs with very little nutrition. Berries are good.
samuell 10y ago
This was the case (being tired by training), and eating properly, in the proper time before exercies, was what totally changed the situation, for me. Not sure about the carbs though (except sugar, which I try to avoid taking in excess). I read up that before e.g. running, 3-4 hours before, I eat a heavy full-component meal, and 1-2 hours before, I eat something lighter, with mostly carbs. The effect is light night and day compared to when not thinking about the eating. Can't be reiterated enough, I think.
- ImTalking 10y ago
  I agree... I always eat before exercising. I would, however, caution on a carb-heavy meal pre-workout. Studies have shown: 1) Consuming carbs pre-workout reduces the fat burned during workout. 2) Consuming protein pre-workout helps preserve muscle protein during exercise. 3) Consuming carbs pre-workout restrains growth hormone release. 4) Carbs elevate serotonin which increases exercise-related fatigue. 5) Higher fat meal will allow more free fatty acids for muscles, and will increase intramuscular triglyceride levels. All this stuff is from the best book out there: Natural Hormonal Enhancement by Rob Faigin.