4 ms·

1) "10 years in the tech industry" is not the same as "Moving to the San Francisco Bay Area to establish a career", which you originally said. 2) People rarely

by dalke 10y ago

1) "10 years in the tech industry" is not the same as "Moving to the San Francisco Bay Area to establish a career", which you originally said. 2) People rarely get a PhD to maximize earning power, so that's a weak proxy. The career path are also different. I think developers after 20 years are more than PhD researchers to become managers. (There are plenty of exceptions.) 3) Last I looked at the numbers, some years ago, a MS in computer science lead to higher career earnings than a PhD. (That's specific to CS - other fields are different.) What is the source of your numbers? The best I could find was https://www2.census.gov/library/infographics/pathways/engineering.pdf https://www2.census.gov/library/infographics/pathways/engine... which says that in general lifetime earnings for a software developer with a BS is $3.3M while a MS is worth an additional $200K. The US Census numbers don't appear to take cost-of-living into account. I couldn't find numbers for people who started a career with 10 years in the Bay Area, nor for PhD graduates of top research universities. 4) "Equivalent" is a very broad term. Had you said "career earnings" I wouldn't have a problem. But a PhD nominally means that someone is able do to independent research. 10 years in industry means, what, that someone is able to be employed in industry? That's more like a MS than a PhD.

chmaynard 10y ago
1) I'm not making a reasoned argument supported by data. I'm suggesting a new metaphor that might help us understand what attracts and motivates many tech workers in the SF Bay Area. 2,3,4) I think you're taking my metaphor literally, which is not very useful. I lived in the South Bay for 22 years working in various tech jobs, and I learned a few things about Silicon Valley culture (although I'm certainly no expert). Many young people with some degree of formal education and technical experience move to the Bay Area to establish careers and accumulate some capital. A few get wealthy and can afford to acquire property in the Bay Area and settle down to a reasonably normal life. Most, however, are transient workers who get valuable training and experience that will serve them well when they decide to move to a more affordable place. The "college town" metaphor is my way of describing this pattern.
- dalke 10y ago
  Yes, and I'm arguing that it's a poor metaphor. I think the metaphor you're looking for is that they are journeymen, and the time in the Bay Area their journeyman years. In the college town metaphor, most of the students are working towards their bachelor degree, not PhD. Have you ever been in a PhD program? Do you know many PhD researchers who did not end up in the Bay Area? Could you ask them if they think their PhD work was equivalent to 10 years as a software developer?
  - chmaynard 10y ago
    My father was an organic chemist with a Ph.D. from Yale. After earning his degree, he moved to Delaware to work for DuPont, along with thousands of other scientists. He was paid very well in comparison to the average blue collar or even white collar worker in the same city, so I think his Ph.D. paid off handsomely. My parents didn't wait to start a family, purchase property, and start building personal wealth. They got involved in community affairs and local politics. They put down roots and had a balanced life. In contrast, many Bay Area tech workers are living like extended adolescents, living in rental housing and working on a "corporate campus" for a company that is essentially in loco parentis. Typically they are not engaged in local community affairs or politics. Is this not somewhat like college?
    - dalke 10y ago
      The Baby Boomer era is past. What you describe of your father's experience no longer really exists. If that's the only person you know, then your impressions of the career possibilities of a PhD are seriously out of date. In your father's era, many blue collar workers could also "start a family, purchase property, and start building personal wealth" with their jobs, including straight out of high school. For that matter, the programmers of the 1960s and 1970s also had little problem getting a solid job. Nowadays with a PhD in chemistry you often end up doing a postdoc or two for several years. As two data points, https://sankirnam.wordpress.com/category/chemistry-jobs-2/ https://sankirnam.wordpress.com/category/chemistry-jobs-2/ : > I didn’t do a postdoc because I wanted to get an industry job, but now it appears that a postdoc is necessary – and this is information that I only found out after graduating. That in turn points to http://justlikecooking.blogspot.com/2016/05/postdoc-required-check-job-ads.html http://justlikecooking.blogspot.com/2016/05/postdoc-required... , which points out job ads for industry which require post-doc experience. An organic chemist now likely will be in the early 30s before being able to do the things your father did immediately after graduating. And without having to deal with issues like http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj7568-279a http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj... or http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj6924-766a http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj... . Yes, postdocs often have roommates: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=postdoc+roommate&t=ffsb&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=postdoc+roommate&t=ffsb&ia=web . You end with "Is this not somewhat like college". Absolutely, I agree. My point is that what you describe is much more like the college experience than it is the PhD experience. Or like a journeyman, who also, at least traditionally, does not 'put down roots'.

by dalke 10y ago

chmaynard 10y ago

1) I'm not making a reasoned argument supported by data. I'm suggesting a new metaphor that might help us understand what attracts and motivates many tech workers in the SF Bay Area. 2,3,4) I think you're taking my metaphor literally, which is not very useful. I lived in the South Bay for 22 years working in various tech jobs, and I learned a few things about Silicon Valley culture (although I'm certainly no expert). Many young people with some degree of formal education and technical experience move to the Bay Area to establish careers and accumulate some capital. A few get wealthy and can afford to acquire property in the Bay Area and settle down to a reasonably normal life. Most, however, are transient workers who get valuable training and experience that will serve them well when they decide to move to a more affordable place. The "college town" metaphor is my way of describing this pattern.

dalke 10y ago
Yes, and I'm arguing that it's a poor metaphor. I think the metaphor you're looking for is that they are journeymen, and the time in the Bay Area their journeyman years. In the college town metaphor, most of the students are working towards their bachelor degree, not PhD. Have you ever been in a PhD program? Do you know many PhD researchers who did not end up in the Bay Area? Could you ask them if they think their PhD work was equivalent to 10 years as a software developer?
- chmaynard 10y ago
  My father was an organic chemist with a Ph.D. from Yale. After earning his degree, he moved to Delaware to work for DuPont, along with thousands of other scientists. He was paid very well in comparison to the average blue collar or even white collar worker in the same city, so I think his Ph.D. paid off handsomely. My parents didn't wait to start a family, purchase property, and start building personal wealth. They got involved in community affairs and local politics. They put down roots and had a balanced life. In contrast, many Bay Area tech workers are living like extended adolescents, living in rental housing and working on a "corporate campus" for a company that is essentially in loco parentis. Typically they are not engaged in local community affairs or politics. Is this not somewhat like college?
  - dalke 10y ago
    The Baby Boomer era is past. What you describe of your father's experience no longer really exists. If that's the only person you know, then your impressions of the career possibilities of a PhD are seriously out of date. In your father's era, many blue collar workers could also "start a family, purchase property, and start building personal wealth" with their jobs, including straight out of high school. For that matter, the programmers of the 1960s and 1970s also had little problem getting a solid job. Nowadays with a PhD in chemistry you often end up doing a postdoc or two for several years. As two data points, https://sankirnam.wordpress.com/category/chemistry-jobs-2/ https://sankirnam.wordpress.com/category/chemistry-jobs-2/ : > I didn’t do a postdoc because I wanted to get an industry job, but now it appears that a postdoc is necessary – and this is information that I only found out after graduating. That in turn points to http://justlikecooking.blogspot.com/2016/05/postdoc-required-check-job-ads.html http://justlikecooking.blogspot.com/2016/05/postdoc-required... , which points out job ads for industry which require post-doc experience. An organic chemist now likely will be in the early 30s before being able to do the things your father did immediately after graduating. And without having to deal with issues like http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj7568-279a http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj... or http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj6924-766a http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj... . Yes, postdocs often have roommates: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=postdoc+roommate&t=ffsb&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=postdoc+roommate&t=ffsb&ia=web . You end with "Is this not somewhat like college". Absolutely, I agree. My point is that what you describe is much more like the college experience than it is the PhD experience. Or like a journeyman, who also, at least traditionally, does not 'put down roots'.