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Fedora's bleeding-edge kernel support usually means better hardware support for newer laptops, which is great. One potential drawback, however, is the decision

Fedora's bleeding-edge kernel support usually means better hardware support for newer laptops, which is great. One potential drawback, however, is the decision not to include any non-FOSS drivers in the installation package. I completely understand why they do it, but it throws a wrench into the idea of loading Linux onto a laptop and having everything "just work". For instance, getting the Broadcom wifi card that comes with my Dell XPS 13 to work on Fedora has been such a pain in the ass (proprietary driver only) that most people recommend tearing it out and replacing it with an Intel card that has a more Linux-friendly driver. If Redhat really wants better Linux penetration in the laptop world, at some point they're probably going to have to make a decision to either go the Linux Mint route and include proprietary drivers by default, or try to engage some of the hardware manufacturers to open-source their drivers.

IntelMiner 10y ago
FWIW, I recall the last time that Broadcom tried engaging the Linux kernel community was back when there was an open source (b43?) Broadcom driver, it "sort of" worked if you were lucky and didn't use too complex a network setup (If I recall it'd break on certain security modes?) Broadcom showed up suddenly, dumped a badly written set of kernel patches and then disappeared into the ether, frustrating just about everybody involved
dublinben 10y ago
Laptop manufacturers could also just avoid this problem by using modems that don't require proprietary drivers or firmware, like those from Intel or Atheros. This is an entirely avoidable problem.
- syshum 10y ago
  The side effect is the Intel and Atheros are better anyway, BroadCom Wifi is utter crap IMO
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Android and the first wave of Netbooks with GNU/Linux prove what manufacturers actually think of it.
- AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
  I debated calling out the manufacturers as well, but it seemed unfair with the example of my Dell XPS 13. The laptop is installed with Windows by default, and the Broadcom card works just fine there. The XPS 13 Developer Edition (which is pre-loaded with Ubuntu) actually takes your advice and packages an Intel wifi card instead. Certainly they can try to push the "Sell laptops with Linux preloaded and make sure everything works" approach (because let's face it, that's pretty much the only reason why Windows laptops are pervasive), but if you're trying to increase the number of people using Linux, I'd suggest that they might get better results as the thing one uses to repurpose their existing laptop.
  - deong 10y ago
    I'll also give Dell some much-deserved credit for making available a full repair manual for their laptops (or at least some of them). I bought the Windows variant of the XPS 13 because Costco had the 16GB i7 model for $500 cheaper, and Dell gives you complete instructions for things like replacing the WiFi card. Linux support isn't 100% perfect for me, by the way, but it's very usable. The main problem I still have is that power management is mediocre (I can't get it below about 8 watts idle generally), and the USB-C dongle you need for ethernet is very flaky under the current kernels. It works, but often requires unplugging and replugging for it to be recognized, and (very) occasionally completely hangs the machine a few seconds after I plug it in.
  - mbrock 10y ago
    My XPS 13 Developer Edition has the Broadcom card, which makes it annoying to install distros. The proprietary driver has worked without problem as far as I can tell, but I'd really prefer a free driver. (I do think it's fair to call out Dell for selling a Linux developer machine that can't even connect to the internet without proprietary drivers. There's no Ethernet port either.) On the plus side, the retina touch screen works great. Even on my custom NixOS setup it gives me smooth scrolling and even pinch-to-zoom in Chromium Google Maps. Pretty cool.
    - AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
      Sorry to hear, I think your batch must have been one of the early ones. My understanding is that most DE laptops had an Intel card, particularly the models sold in Europe.
- therealidiot 10y ago
  I thought you still have to load proprietary firmware onto Intel cards?
andrewstuart2 10y ago
Have you tried Arch Linux? The install experience is quite bare metal, but once you're past that, the experience is very smooth. Thus far, I've installed it on five machines (three laptops) with varying hardware and had only one hardware issue (and even then only with the boot CD, where I had to add nomodeset to the boot parameters). On second thought, I have also had a few issues back when I thought BTRFS would be a good idea. (It's not). Those were my own fault, though.
Sylos 10y ago
You could try Korora, which is a Fedora-fork with goal of making it more user-friendly, so that includes easier access to proprietary drivers. https://kororaproject.org/ https://kororaproject.org/
- AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
  Funny you should mention Korora: https://kororaproject.org/support/engage/question/upgrade-liveusb-kernel-1 https://kororaproject.org/support/engage/question/upgrade-li... But both of my issues were not specifically Korora's fault, so no biggie. I love the distro otherwise.
witty_username 10y ago
> For instance, getting the Broadcom wifi card that comes with my Dell XPS 13 to work on Fedora has been such a pain in the ass (proprietary driver only) that most people recommend tearing it out and replacing it with an Intel card that has a more Linux-friendly driver. If your laptop has enough ports, you could actually buy a USB wifi dongle for ~3$.
bitL 10y ago
Broadcom is useful if you want to have a hackintosh partition as well. I run Mint/Win7/Win10/OSX on a single QHD+ ultrabook with 1TB M.2 SSD, no WiFi issues under Mint (I am typing this using it right now).
sandGorgon 10y ago
This is very strange -i have the XPS 13 with broadcom and it worked out of the box. There was some problem for a while with the BIOS that caused wifi cards to be not recognized. Can you try with a recent lived?
amluto 10y ago
The Broadcom driver should work now or, at worst, in a couple weeks. I think it landed in 4.7.
- AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
  Source? I've googled around but haven't located anything to that effect.
  - amluto 10y ago
    I can't easily find the commits without my laptop, but it's the brcmfmac driver. Somewhat amazingly, Broadcom wrote the patches.
    - AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
      Googling around, brcmfmac seems to apply to USB devices: http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Drivers/b43/ http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Drivers/b43/ The one inside the XPS 9343 is BCM4352. I'm not seeing any indication of compatibility with a BCM4352 using a brcmfmac driver.

IntelMiner 10y ago

FWIW, I recall the last time that Broadcom tried engaging the Linux kernel community was back when there was an open source (b43?) Broadcom driver, it "sort of" worked if you were lucky and didn't use too complex a network setup (If I recall it'd break on certain security modes?) Broadcom showed up suddenly, dumped a badly written set of kernel patches and then disappeared into the ether, frustrating just about everybody involved

dublinben 10y ago

Laptop manufacturers could also just avoid this problem by using modems that don't require proprietary drivers or firmware, like those from Intel or Atheros. This is an entirely avoidable problem.

syshum 10y ago
The side effect is the Intel and Atheros are better anyway, BroadCom Wifi is utter crap IMO
pjmlp 10y ago
Android and the first wave of Netbooks with GNU/Linux prove what manufacturers actually think of it.
AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
I debated calling out the manufacturers as well, but it seemed unfair with the example of my Dell XPS 13. The laptop is installed with Windows by default, and the Broadcom card works just fine there. The XPS 13 Developer Edition (which is pre-loaded with Ubuntu) actually takes your advice and packages an Intel wifi card instead. Certainly they can try to push the "Sell laptops with Linux preloaded and make sure everything works" approach (because let's face it, that's pretty much the only reason why Windows laptops are pervasive), but if you're trying to increase the number of people using Linux, I'd suggest that they might get better results as the thing one uses to repurpose their existing laptop.
- deong 10y ago
  I'll also give Dell some much-deserved credit for making available a full repair manual for their laptops (or at least some of them). I bought the Windows variant of the XPS 13 because Costco had the 16GB i7 model for $500 cheaper, and Dell gives you complete instructions for things like replacing the WiFi card. Linux support isn't 100% perfect for me, by the way, but it's very usable. The main problem I still have is that power management is mediocre (I can't get it below about 8 watts idle generally), and the USB-C dongle you need for ethernet is very flaky under the current kernels. It works, but often requires unplugging and replugging for it to be recognized, and (very) occasionally completely hangs the machine a few seconds after I plug it in.
- mbrock 10y ago
  My XPS 13 Developer Edition has the Broadcom card, which makes it annoying to install distros. The proprietary driver has worked without problem as far as I can tell, but I'd really prefer a free driver. (I do think it's fair to call out Dell for selling a Linux developer machine that can't even connect to the internet without proprietary drivers. There's no Ethernet port either.) On the plus side, the retina touch screen works great. Even on my custom NixOS setup it gives me smooth scrolling and even pinch-to-zoom in Chromium Google Maps. Pretty cool.
  - AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
    Sorry to hear, I think your batch must have been one of the early ones. My understanding is that most DE laptops had an Intel card, particularly the models sold in Europe.
therealidiot 10y ago
I thought you still have to load proprietary firmware onto Intel cards?

andrewstuart2 10y ago

Have you tried Arch Linux? The install experience is quite bare metal, but once you're past that, the experience is very smooth. Thus far, I've installed it on five machines (three laptops) with varying hardware and had only one hardware issue (and even then only with the boot CD, where I had to add nomodeset to the boot parameters). On second thought, I have also had a few issues back when I thought BTRFS would be a good idea. (It's not). Those were my own fault, though.

Sylos 10y ago

You could try Korora, which is a Fedora-fork with goal of making it more user-friendly, so that includes easier access to proprietary drivers. https://kororaproject.org/ https://kororaproject.org/

AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
Funny you should mention Korora: https://kororaproject.org/support/engage/question/upgrade-liveusb-kernel-1 https://kororaproject.org/support/engage/question/upgrade-li... But both of my issues were not specifically Korora's fault, so no biggie. I love the distro otherwise.

witty_username 10y ago

> For instance, getting the Broadcom wifi card that comes with my Dell XPS 13 to work on Fedora has been such a pain in the ass (proprietary driver only) that most people recommend tearing it out and replacing it with an Intel card that has a more Linux-friendly driver. If your laptop has enough ports, you could actually buy a USB wifi dongle for ~3$.

bitL 10y ago

Broadcom is useful if you want to have a hackintosh partition as well. I run Mint/Win7/Win10/OSX on a single QHD+ ultrabook with 1TB M.2 SSD, no WiFi issues under Mint (I am typing this using it right now).

sandGorgon 10y ago

This is very strange -i have the XPS 13 with broadcom and it worked out of the box. There was some problem for a while with the BIOS that caused wifi cards to be not recognized. Can you try with a recent lived?

amluto 10y ago

The Broadcom driver should work now or, at worst, in a couple weeks. I think it landed in 4.7.

AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
Source? I've googled around but haven't located anything to that effect.
- amluto 10y ago
  I can't easily find the commits without my laptop, but it's the brcmfmac driver. Somewhat amazingly, Broadcom wrote the patches.
  - AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
    Googling around, brcmfmac seems to apply to USB devices: http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Drivers/b43/ http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Drivers/b43/ The one inside the XPS 9343 is BCM4352. I'm not seeing any indication of compatibility with a BCM4352 using a brcmfmac driver.