4 ms·

Housing official in SV resigns because she can't afford to live there

3 points by gdilla 10y ago

chmaynard 10y ago
From another article on this topic: "Many tech workers start out in San Francisco to boost salary and establish themselves before moving to more affordable markets." This is a key insight. Moving to the San Francisco Bay Area to establish a career is the industry equivalent of earning a Ph.D. at a major research university. In this sense, the entire SF Bay Area is essentially a huge college town. It's perfectly normal for a college graduate to pick up and move elsewhere to start a family and live in a more affordable place. This is what Kate Downing and many others are doing.
- dalke 10y ago
  What? I strongly disagree. I moved to the Bay Area to establish a software development career, and I've been in a PhD program at a major research university. The connection between them is tenuous at best. At the very least, why is it equivalent to a PhD and not MS or BS?
  - chmaynard 10y ago
    A Ph.D. from a top university and 10 years working in the SF Bay Area tech industry are comparable in terms of their potential to increase one's earning power.
    - dalke 10y ago
      1) "10 years in the tech industry" is not the same as "Moving to the San Francisco Bay Area to establish a career", which you originally said. 2) People rarely get a PhD to maximize earning power, so that's a weak proxy. The career path are also different. I think developers after 20 years are more than PhD researchers to become managers. (There are plenty of exceptions.) 3) Last I looked at the numbers, some years ago, a MS in computer science lead to higher career earnings than a PhD. (That's specific to CS - other fields are different.) What is the source of your numbers? The best I could find was https://www2.census.gov/library/infographics/pathways/engineering.pdf https://www2.census.gov/library/infographics/pathways/engine... which says that in general lifetime earnings for a software developer with a BS is $3.3M while a MS is worth an additional $200K. The US Census numbers don't appear to take cost-of-living into account. I couldn't find numbers for people who started a career with 10 years in the Bay Area, nor for PhD graduates of top research universities. 4) "Equivalent" is a very broad term. Had you said "career earnings" I wouldn't have a problem. But a PhD nominally means that someone is able do to independent research. 10 years in industry means, what, that someone is able to be employed in industry? That's more like a MS than a PhD.
      - chmaynard 10y ago
        1) I'm not making a reasoned argument supported by data. I'm suggesting a new metaphor that might help us understand what attracts and motivates many tech workers in the SF Bay Area. 2,3,4) I think you're taking my metaphor literally, which is not very useful. I lived in the South Bay for 22 years working in various tech jobs, and I learned a few things about Silicon Valley culture (although I'm certainly no expert). Many young people with some degree of formal education and technical experience move to the Bay Area to establish careers and accumulate some capital. A few get wealthy and can afford to acquire property in the Bay Area and settle down to a reasonably normal life. Most, however, are transient workers who get valuable training and experience that will serve them well when they decide to move to a more affordable place. The "college town" metaphor is my way of describing this pattern.
        dalke 10y ago
        Yes, and I'm arguing that it's a poor metaphor. I think the metaphor you're looking for is that they are journeymen, and the time in the Bay Area their journeyman years. In the college town metaphor, most of the students are working towards their bachelor degree, not PhD. Have you ever been in a PhD program? Do you know many PhD researchers who did not end up in the Bay Area? Could you ask them if they think their PhD work was equivalent to 10 years as a software developer?
        chmaynard 10y ago
        My father was an organic chemist with a Ph.D. from Yale. After earning his degree, he moved to Delaware to work for DuPont, along with thousands of other scientists. He was paid very well in comparison to the average blue collar or even white collar worker in the same city, so I think his Ph.D. paid off handsomely. My parents didn't wait to start a family, purchase property, and start building personal wealth. They got involved in community affairs and local politics. They put down roots and had a balanced life. In contrast, many Bay Area tech workers are living like extended adolescents, living in rental housing and working on a "corporate campus" for a company that is essentially in loco parentis. Typically they are not engaged in local community affairs or politics. Is this not somewhat like college?

3 points by gdilla 10y ago

From another article on this topic: "Many tech workers start out in San Francisco to boost salary and establish themselves before moving to more affordable markets." This is a key insight. Moving to the San Francisco Bay Area to establish a career is the industry equivalent of earning a Ph.D. at a major research university. In this sense, the entire SF Bay Area is essentially a huge college town. It's perfectly normal for a college graduate to pick up and move elsewhere to start a family and live in a more affordable place. This is what Kate Downing and many others are doing.

dalke 10y ago
What? I strongly disagree. I moved to the Bay Area to establish a software development career, and I've been in a PhD program at a major research university. The connection between them is tenuous at best. At the very least, why is it equivalent to a PhD and not MS or BS?
- chmaynard 10y ago
  A Ph.D. from a top university and 10 years working in the SF Bay Area tech industry are comparable in terms of their potential to increase one's earning power.
  - dalke 10y ago
    1) "10 years in the tech industry" is not the same as "Moving to the San Francisco Bay Area to establish a career", which you originally said. 2) People rarely get a PhD to maximize earning power, so that's a weak proxy. The career path are also different. I think developers after 20 years are more than PhD researchers to become managers. (There are plenty of exceptions.) 3) Last I looked at the numbers, some years ago, a MS in computer science lead to higher career earnings than a PhD. (That's specific to CS - other fields are different.) What is the source of your numbers? The best I could find was https://www2.census.gov/library/infographics/pathways/engineering.pdf https://www2.census.gov/library/infographics/pathways/engine... which says that in general lifetime earnings for a software developer with a BS is $3.3M while a MS is worth an additional $200K. The US Census numbers don't appear to take cost-of-living into account. I couldn't find numbers for people who started a career with 10 years in the Bay Area, nor for PhD graduates of top research universities. 4) "Equivalent" is a very broad term. Had you said "career earnings" I wouldn't have a problem. But a PhD nominally means that someone is able do to independent research. 10 years in industry means, what, that someone is able to be employed in industry? That's more like a MS than a PhD.
    - chmaynard 10y ago
      1) I'm not making a reasoned argument supported by data. I'm suggesting a new metaphor that might help us understand what attracts and motivates many tech workers in the SF Bay Area. 2,3,4) I think you're taking my metaphor literally, which is not very useful. I lived in the South Bay for 22 years working in various tech jobs, and I learned a few things about Silicon Valley culture (although I'm certainly no expert). Many young people with some degree of formal education and technical experience move to the Bay Area to establish careers and accumulate some capital. A few get wealthy and can afford to acquire property in the Bay Area and settle down to a reasonably normal life. Most, however, are transient workers who get valuable training and experience that will serve them well when they decide to move to a more affordable place. The "college town" metaphor is my way of describing this pattern.
      - dalke 10y ago
        Yes, and I'm arguing that it's a poor metaphor. I think the metaphor you're looking for is that they are journeymen, and the time in the Bay Area their journeyman years. In the college town metaphor, most of the students are working towards their bachelor degree, not PhD. Have you ever been in a PhD program? Do you know many PhD researchers who did not end up in the Bay Area? Could you ask them if they think their PhD work was equivalent to 10 years as a software developer?
        chmaynard 10y ago
        My father was an organic chemist with a Ph.D. from Yale. After earning his degree, he moved to Delaware to work for DuPont, along with thousands of other scientists. He was paid very well in comparison to the average blue collar or even white collar worker in the same city, so I think his Ph.D. paid off handsomely. My parents didn't wait to start a family, purchase property, and start building personal wealth. They got involved in community affairs and local politics. They put down roots and had a balanced life. In contrast, many Bay Area tech workers are living like extended adolescents, living in rental housing and working on a "corporate campus" for a company that is essentially in loco parentis. Typically they are not engaged in local community affairs or politics. Is this not somewhat like college?