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Working conditions for programmers though have become amazingly good without unions or government intervention, just through competition for workers. See the pe

Working conditions for programmers though have become amazingly good without unions or government intervention, just through competition for workers. See the perk inflation in Silicon Valley in the Google years, or just wage inflation in general.

formula1 10y ago
Thats a supply and demand issue though. If disney has taught us anything its that an entire IT team can be replaced by H1-B. Silicon Valley tends to hire mit grads or savants. As those skills become more prevelent however, the demand for those individuals will be driven down. Right now a very small portion of the world cam program and even smaller are good at it. If it becomes more common though, these good wages will no longer be necessary
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
It depends on your definition of good. Programming is an office job with low customer interaction (most times), but on the other hand, you might be working quite a bit of overtime or be subjected to meeting after meeting. All without having a decent vacation or sick leave policy. I'd argue that such things like limits on workweeks, paid sick days that do not risk jobs, and 3-4 weeks off a year (mandatory!) would mean a lot more than the perks over time, but I very much doubt that stuff will happen without government intervention.
- zigzigzag 10y ago
  Perhaps this is a geographical problem. I've always had paid time off, sick time etc as a working programmer. But I have been working in Europe. I know Americans get less sick time and vacation time but I'm pretty sure it's more than nothing. Being subject to too many meetings is a pain but most workers would hardly see it as a major quality of life issue.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    Heh. Probably is. I'm in Europe, but moved from the states. A lot of European countries either have a really strong tradition of giving paid time off and sick time or have those sorts of protections written into law. There is no such thing in the states. While some companies give vacation, a lot of folks have trouble taking more than a few days off at a time even if they have 3 weeks worth. A few give sick time - paid vacation, but it still counts negatively towards attendance at times. Yet still more folks get absolutely none of this. Admittedly, a lot of programmers won't get this short end, but they probably feel pressure to work even when sick and sometimes have trouble taking vacation time. There are federal laws that grant some unpaid leave for serious injury only if you work at a qualifying company for a long enough time. A few companies will give partial pay and some folks buy insurance to cover such things.
Noseshine 10y ago
I think a big part of this is that they concentrate on younger programmers. Too many stories of older ones unable to find a new job to be anecdotal by now. The younger people are much less experienced and are eager to work and neglect family, which often they don't even have yet. I think that shifts the power quite a bit.
Clubber 10y ago
Businesses have been doing everything in their power to reduce the cost of programmers. Offshoring, lobbying the H1B system, Agile, get everyone to code initiatives, overly broad non-competes, etc. One day they will get it, but they haven't figured it out yet. Imagine how much programmers would make if they were unionized. I would imagine at least double.
- zigzigzag 10y ago
  You'd have to unionize globally though, and that'd be very hard. The incentives to undercut a unionised workforce are massive. Yes there's been some outsourcing but I also know many companies that are squeamish about remote work and insist on having local workers even in high cost localities. Unionised workforce and constant strikes would get rid of that squeamishness double quick time.
  - Clubber 10y ago
    I wouldn't think so. Previous unions started one company at a time. If the company has US workers who are willing to unionize, the union has instant power to block or limit many attempts to gut the workforce through offshoring, etc.
fsloth 10y ago
Yes, we can only wonder what amount of value programmers could capture if they had any more leverage at the wage negotiation table. Given that the stereotypical engineer is half-ashamed to ask for a raise and is half-embarrased to admit he gets paid I can only imagine the current wage levels - although driven by supply and demand in programmers favour - are breadcrumbs when compared to the true value generated.

formula1 10y ago

Thats a supply and demand issue though. If disney has taught us anything its that an entire IT team can be replaced by H1-B. Silicon Valley tends to hire mit grads or savants. As those skills become more prevelent however, the demand for those individuals will be driven down. Right now a very small portion of the world cam program and even smaller are good at it. If it becomes more common though, these good wages will no longer be necessary

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

It depends on your definition of good. Programming is an office job with low customer interaction (most times), but on the other hand, you might be working quite a bit of overtime or be subjected to meeting after meeting. All without having a decent vacation or sick leave policy. I'd argue that such things like limits on workweeks, paid sick days that do not risk jobs, and 3-4 weeks off a year (mandatory!) would mean a lot more than the perks over time, but I very much doubt that stuff will happen without government intervention.

zigzigzag 10y ago
Perhaps this is a geographical problem. I've always had paid time off, sick time etc as a working programmer. But I have been working in Europe. I know Americans get less sick time and vacation time but I'm pretty sure it's more than nothing. Being subject to too many meetings is a pain but most workers would hardly see it as a major quality of life issue.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  Heh. Probably is. I'm in Europe, but moved from the states. A lot of European countries either have a really strong tradition of giving paid time off and sick time or have those sorts of protections written into law. There is no such thing in the states. While some companies give vacation, a lot of folks have trouble taking more than a few days off at a time even if they have 3 weeks worth. A few give sick time - paid vacation, but it still counts negatively towards attendance at times. Yet still more folks get absolutely none of this. Admittedly, a lot of programmers won't get this short end, but they probably feel pressure to work even when sick and sometimes have trouble taking vacation time. There are federal laws that grant some unpaid leave for serious injury only if you work at a qualifying company for a long enough time. A few companies will give partial pay and some folks buy insurance to cover such things.

Noseshine 10y ago

I think a big part of this is that they concentrate on younger programmers. Too many stories of older ones unable to find a new job to be anecdotal by now. The younger people are much less experienced and are eager to work and neglect family, which often they don't even have yet. I think that shifts the power quite a bit.

Clubber 10y ago

Businesses have been doing everything in their power to reduce the cost of programmers. Offshoring, lobbying the H1B system, Agile, get everyone to code initiatives, overly broad non-competes, etc. One day they will get it, but they haven't figured it out yet. Imagine how much programmers would make if they were unionized. I would imagine at least double.

zigzigzag 10y ago
You'd have to unionize globally though, and that'd be very hard. The incentives to undercut a unionised workforce are massive. Yes there's been some outsourcing but I also know many companies that are squeamish about remote work and insist on having local workers even in high cost localities. Unionised workforce and constant strikes would get rid of that squeamishness double quick time.
- Clubber 10y ago
  I wouldn't think so. Previous unions started one company at a time. If the company has US workers who are willing to unionize, the union has instant power to block or limit many attempts to gut the workforce through offshoring, etc.

fsloth 10y ago

Yes, we can only wonder what amount of value programmers could capture if they had any more leverage at the wage negotiation table. Given that the stereotypical engineer is half-ashamed to ask for a raise and is half-embarrased to admit he gets paid I can only imagine the current wage levels - although driven by supply and demand in programmers favour - are breadcrumbs when compared to the true value generated.