7 ms·

You think through the eyes of idealism. Consider this You are the owner of a fortune 500 company You need to hire enough people to fullfill 1600 hours a day,

You think through the eyes of idealism. Consider this You are the owner of a fortune 500 company You need to hire enough people to fullfill 1600 hours a day, 14 days per paycheck. You want to hire the people as cheaply as possible. If the individual knows they only have to work 20 hrs per week to survive, they have the power to negotiate. If the individual believes that they have to work two jobs for 60 hrs per week to survive, the company has the power to negotiate. Why would you pay more money for same value and less negotiation power? In your ideal world there are enough starving/superficial/ambitious people that you can pay pennies for exponential growth.

fsloth 10y ago
Sorry, I don't understand your point in the historical context. Original labour conditions in factories were horrible. The conditions did not improve through economic rationalization but because society recognized it as wrong and forced factory owners to employ better working conditions.
- formula1 10y ago
  Its slso possible they werent sustainable. Worker strikes snd unions will definitely put a hamper on your production. If people cant support children or they know a job is a death sentence, when an opening comes up due to a strike they may not be too eager to work
  - fsloth 10y ago
    Yes, I trivialized a complex social evolution on my comment to make the point that labour conditions were not changed simply because it made sense economically in the factory owner's yearly budgeting. The main driving factor was recognition from all around that the labour conditions needed to change for ethical reasons, and the factory owners had to acquiesce to the demands of the society.
    - formula1 10y ago
      Are you talking about the gov? If thats the case, you should look into the history in regards to unions and unethical labor practice. I think it was this year that a whistleblower revealed that lithium was being mined by children. I appreciate you think we have "evolved" but really we just wear better masks
- zigzigzag 10y ago
  Working conditions for programmers though have become amazingly good without unions or government intervention, just through competition for workers. See the perk inflation in Silicon Valley in the Google years, or just wage inflation in general.
  - formula1 10y ago
    Thats a supply and demand issue though. If disney has taught us anything its that an entire IT team can be replaced by H1-B. Silicon Valley tends to hire mit grads or savants. As those skills become more prevelent however, the demand for those individuals will be driven down. Right now a very small portion of the world cam program and even smaller are good at it. If it becomes more common though, these good wages will no longer be necessary
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    It depends on your definition of good. Programming is an office job with low customer interaction (most times), but on the other hand, you might be working quite a bit of overtime or be subjected to meeting after meeting. All without having a decent vacation or sick leave policy. I'd argue that such things like limits on workweeks, paid sick days that do not risk jobs, and 3-4 weeks off a year (mandatory!) would mean a lot more than the perks over time, but I very much doubt that stuff will happen without government intervention.
    - zigzigzag 10y ago
      Perhaps this is a geographical problem. I've always had paid time off, sick time etc as a working programmer. But I have been working in Europe. I know Americans get less sick time and vacation time but I'm pretty sure it's more than nothing. Being subject to too many meetings is a pain but most workers would hardly see it as a major quality of life issue.
      - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
        Heh. Probably is. I'm in Europe, but moved from the states. A lot of European countries either have a really strong tradition of giving paid time off and sick time or have those sorts of protections written into law. There is no such thing in the states. While some companies give vacation, a lot of folks have trouble taking more than a few days off at a time even if they have 3 weeks worth. A few give sick time - paid vacation, but it still counts negatively towards attendance at times. Yet still more folks get absolutely none of this. Admittedly, a lot of programmers won't get this short end, but they probably feel pressure to work even when sick and sometimes have trouble taking vacation time. There are federal laws that grant some unpaid leave for serious injury only if you work at a qualifying company for a long enough time. A few companies will give partial pay and some folks buy insurance to cover such things.
chkras 10y ago
One may also pay pennies for bullets, likely better to move both you AND your money overseas while you still can.
- formula1 10y ago
  Is this a threat? This will happen everywhere. There is no escape. Big brother will be watching, already are. This isnt some new crazy concept. This is why unions exist, strikes occur, nationalism and anti-immigration is prevalent. The difference now is that the replacements are truly dumb and spineless while before they were simply desperate enough to pretend

fsloth 10y ago

Sorry, I don't understand your point in the historical context. Original labour conditions in factories were horrible. The conditions did not improve through economic rationalization but because society recognized it as wrong and forced factory owners to employ better working conditions.

formula1 10y ago
Its slso possible they werent sustainable. Worker strikes snd unions will definitely put a hamper on your production. If people cant support children or they know a job is a death sentence, when an opening comes up due to a strike they may not be too eager to work
- fsloth 10y ago
  Yes, I trivialized a complex social evolution on my comment to make the point that labour conditions were not changed simply because it made sense economically in the factory owner's yearly budgeting. The main driving factor was recognition from all around that the labour conditions needed to change for ethical reasons, and the factory owners had to acquiesce to the demands of the society.
  - formula1 10y ago
    Are you talking about the gov? If thats the case, you should look into the history in regards to unions and unethical labor practice. I think it was this year that a whistleblower revealed that lithium was being mined by children. I appreciate you think we have "evolved" but really we just wear better masks
zigzigzag 10y ago
Working conditions for programmers though have become amazingly good without unions or government intervention, just through competition for workers. See the perk inflation in Silicon Valley in the Google years, or just wage inflation in general.
- formula1 10y ago
  Thats a supply and demand issue though. If disney has taught us anything its that an entire IT team can be replaced by H1-B. Silicon Valley tends to hire mit grads or savants. As those skills become more prevelent however, the demand for those individuals will be driven down. Right now a very small portion of the world cam program and even smaller are good at it. If it becomes more common though, these good wages will no longer be necessary
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  It depends on your definition of good. Programming is an office job with low customer interaction (most times), but on the other hand, you might be working quite a bit of overtime or be subjected to meeting after meeting. All without having a decent vacation or sick leave policy. I'd argue that such things like limits on workweeks, paid sick days that do not risk jobs, and 3-4 weeks off a year (mandatory!) would mean a lot more than the perks over time, but I very much doubt that stuff will happen without government intervention.
  - zigzigzag 10y ago
    Perhaps this is a geographical problem. I've always had paid time off, sick time etc as a working programmer. But I have been working in Europe. I know Americans get less sick time and vacation time but I'm pretty sure it's more than nothing. Being subject to too many meetings is a pain but most workers would hardly see it as a major quality of life issue.
    - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
      Heh. Probably is. I'm in Europe, but moved from the states. A lot of European countries either have a really strong tradition of giving paid time off and sick time or have those sorts of protections written into law. There is no such thing in the states. While some companies give vacation, a lot of folks have trouble taking more than a few days off at a time even if they have 3 weeks worth. A few give sick time - paid vacation, but it still counts negatively towards attendance at times. Yet still more folks get absolutely none of this. Admittedly, a lot of programmers won't get this short end, but they probably feel pressure to work even when sick and sometimes have trouble taking vacation time. There are federal laws that grant some unpaid leave for serious injury only if you work at a qualifying company for a long enough time. A few companies will give partial pay and some folks buy insurance to cover such things.

chkras 10y ago

One may also pay pennies for bullets, likely better to move both you AND your money overseas while you still can.

formula1 10y ago
Is this a threat? This will happen everywhere. There is no escape. Big brother will be watching, already are. This isnt some new crazy concept. This is why unions exist, strikes occur, nationalism and anti-immigration is prevalent. The difference now is that the replacements are truly dumb and spineless while before they were simply desperate enough to pretend