7 ms·
While most are focusing on the "default location" issue, I can see another issue in this article: Why are people expecting the output of an IP mapping database
by cesarb 10y ago
While most are focusing on the "default location" issue, I can see another issue in this article:
Why are people expecting the output of an IP mapping database to be precise enough to send law enforcement to that physical location? From what I could gather from the article, law enforcement (and others) are treating it as if it was as exact as a reverse phone number lookup, while in reality there's no way a global IP mapping database can get much more precise than "around that city" (unless perhaps if the IP address is in a datacenter).
That is, even without it being a "default location", sending people to the GPS coordinates obtained from an IP mapping database is nonsense.
- sneak 10y agoIf cops weren't dumb, they wouldn't be cops.
- sctb 10y agoPlease don't comment like this here.
- sneak 10y agoCould you please be more specific? I thought it was well-known by now that police in the United States are either violent, unintelligent thugs or complicit in allowing same to operate. He asked a sincere question, this is a sincere answer. I wish to abide by the rules for commenting here, so I respectfully request what you mean by "like this".
- ptaipale 10y ago>I thought it was well-known by now that police in the United States are either This "well-known" is a poor way to make arguments. Try to substitute "police" with something like "black people" and you might see the problem.
- sneak 10y agoI wasn't making an argument; I was asking a question and providing the context for my confusion. PS: Cops choose to be cops.
- sctb 10y agoThe comment in question violates the guidelines by introducing a classic flamewar topic without anything new to say, by your own admission. It also does so uncivilly and without substantive contribution to the discussion: the poster's question was not about the abilities of law enforcement, but about the inherent inaccuracy of IP-based geolocation. Please re-read the guidelines if you haven't recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- pmorici 10y agoThe question is why are they using something people generally expect to be very precise (lat, lon coordinates) to communicate information that is only accurate to a country or state level. That is where the problem is.
- ddalex 10y agoBecause they want to leave the impression they have capabilities that they don't actually have.
- rayiner 10y agoBecause the data is almost always presented in a misleading way by computers.
- nitrogen 10y agoIf you have ever ordered pizza from a static IP, you probably have a perfect address matched to that IP in a database someone has for sale somewhere. Probably true for other online retailers (though not all of them).
- geon 10y agoUntil you reboot the router.
- runeb 10y agoParent commenter said static ip
- nix0n 10y ago> If you have ever ordered pizza from a static IP Most homes in the USA do not have static IPs. So this approach to mapping would not work.
- jessaustin 10y agoIt would work well enough for those who just want a door to knock down. The public draws its own conclusions about those who use this sort of service for this sort of purpose.
- nitrogen 10y agoCable IPs, while assigned by DHCP, change incredibly rarely in many or most areas, and are thus effectively static. I've seen my exact address filled in on a pizza site I had never before visited.
- strathmeyer 10y agoPizza guy still calls me two blocks from my house because that is where GPS tells him to stop. If you don't want this happening, you're going to need a police department that doesn't fire cops whenever the become smart enough to understand what an 'IP address' is.
- noxToken 10y ago>Why are people expecting the output of an IP mapping database to be precise enough to send law enforcement to that physical location? The everyday layperson doesn't understand technology as well as we'd like them to. A common analogy is comparing an IP address to a mailing address or phone number for computers. For most purposes, this analogy is good enough. When we start trying to pinpoint people for crimes, the analogy is no longer perfect.
- syshum 10y ago>A common analogy is comparing an IP address to a mailing address or phone number for computers. For most purposes, this analogy is good enough While it is a common analogy, is not "good enough" because it is incorrect, inaccurate, and has lead to a host of problems far removed from this current GeoIP issue. RIAA/MPAA is one of the worst offenders at attempting to equate an IP address to a Physical Address/person for the purpose of civil and legal liability. I believe they are the ones that cemented this very very flawed and incorrect analogy in to the minds of the less technical minded persons
- noxToken 10y agoI think we have to take the analogies for what they are: a simple comparison to break down a complex topic into familiar terms. Once you move from informational purposes to application, a simple analogy isn't good enough. You have to start learning the limitations of whatever you're using. Case in point: the RIAA/MPAA. They took the analogy and ran with it just as you said. That's not the fault of the analogy or the people who first used it.
- d0lph 10y ago"All metaphors are wrong, but some metaphors are useful"
- alistairSH 10y agoWouldn't a better analogy be comparing to a cell phone? Yes, we know the "owner" of the number. And we might know roughly where they were a short time ago. But, we can't, with any certainty, tell you where they'll be tomorrow, because cell phones are portable.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 10y agoReally, the error here is that it's returning a point. And this is a mistake that pervades all of society. The idea that any measurement could give you an exact value. Every measurement of the physical world should always give you a range of non-zero size. So, a lookup in a geo-ip database should give you an area. And it's perfectly fine to give a default value of "the USA" if that's where the address is located. It's only idiotic to return "the center of the USA".
- syshum 10y ago> So, a lookup in a geo-ip database should give you an area. Good thing that is exactly what it does.
- mynewtb 10y agoDoes it really? If I remember correctly I got a point and some abstract indicator for the level of accuracy.
- tlrobinson 10y agoThere are multiple geo-ip databases. MaxMind's apparently does give an "accuracy radius" https://www.maxmind.com/en/geoip-demo https://www.maxmind.com/en/geoip-demo but many others don't, and of course tools built on top of any particular geo-ip database might not present that information to users.
- noselasd 10y agoIt also seems the designers didn't envision any errors - the system always gives a valid result - which indicates this hasn't been particularly well engineered. A GeoIP lookup can fail, and that error should be propagated through to whoever is using it - instead of returning a default value.
- DougBTX 10y agoA result of "the USA" may not be an error, just the best data available, not all IPs are in the US.
- zouhair 10y agoMy IP location shows up in Toronto while I'm in Montreal. So, yeah.
- mikeryan 10y agoThat is, even without it being a "default location", sending people to the GPS coordinates obtained from an IP mapping database is nonsense. Ignoring the default location issue. Imagine I'm a police officer and I don't know that MaxMind returns a default location. I then take an IP pop it into my tool and it gives me a lat/long. I take that transpose it on a map and see that to my surprise there's a single home or address at that location (these folks live on a 600 acre ranch). If I'm an investigator and all I have to work with is an IP, even knowing that MaxMind isn't perfect wouldn't it still be worth it to take a trip out to that point to investigate? BTW Just for giggles this is the map if you use the returned coordinates https://www.google.com/maps/place/38°00'00.0"N+97°00'00.0"W/@38,-97.0043774,1846m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d38!4d-97 https://www.google.com/maps/place/38°00'00.0"N+97°00'00.0"W/...
- sfifs 10y agoMost people including many in tech firms that build tools based off IP to Geo lookups don't actually understand the inaccuracies inherent in the process. I actually spent a couple of weeks not so long ago trying to get data on accuracy benchmarks from tech firms in China. Initially they didn't even understand the question - they just used a standard database provided by someone else which is treated as Gospel. So I'm not too surprised non tech people like police make this mistake.