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So you consider the Chinese people so inept, so incapable of influencing their destiny that they tolerate such an outrage? Or do you consider them to be morall

So you consider the Chinese people so inept, so incapable of influencing their destiny that they tolerate such an outrage? Or do you consider them to be morally inept and complicit in their own enslavement? When you claim that a foreign regime is illegitimate you are either making the above claims OR you are calling for intervention. What kind of intervention? Well we occasionally see sanctions (which result in starvation) and we occasionally see bombs. When it comes down to it, most people in China are living their lives quite happily, and I think it's condescending to think that their biggest concerns happen to be America's most self-congratulatory customs. edit: If you hold this view, then you are putting the state and the state's laws above the day to day lives of people. This is the kind of thinking that leads to beliefs like "it's worth killing 1M Iraqi people and making another million starve just to be rid of Saddam".

tokenadult 17y ago
No, my kind of thinking led to the people power revolution in the Philippines and the mostly peaceful democratic transitions in Taiwan and south Korea. Oh, I almost forgot the best example of all: the peaceful democratic transitions in Hungary, east Germany, and a few other Warsaw Pact countries.
- grandalf 17y ago
  Your way of thinking on whose part? Are you saying that opinionated Americans deserve credit for those peaceful democratic transitions? ... that American neocons do? I have no problem with people in their own country deciding to dislike the regime and trying to act politically to change it. That's organic democracy. I have a big problem with armchair revolutionaries in the US encouraging people to sacrifice their own lives so in a revolution. Few political goals are worth anyone's life, and most people weighing in against China are part of various interest groups who stand to gain from China's turmoil or demise. It's only politicians who think that their own political goals/aspirations are worth the lives of others. How many lives is it worth to accelerate China's liberalization by one year? How many is it worth to make the Iraqi people have an election? I love the idea of organic, heroic revolution toward democracy and the creation of transparent, non-corrupt institutions as much as the next guy, but I have a big problem with American interests trying to spark revolutions around the world. I think westerners have a very strong bias about the sorts of institutions that may be viewed as democratic. I'd argue that, for example, Islam is a heavily decentralized, democratic institution. So I'm highly cynical when the US steps in, requires secularism, and picks winners and losers, while telling all of us sitting on our couches back in America that the reason is women's rights, etc. That's nonsense, the truth is that we just like picking winners and losers but our leaders have realized that they get a lot more mileage selling war when there is a set of underlying humanitarian talking points. Even in the absence of perfect political institutions, people lead happy, fruitful, day to day lives. They enjoy their work, their families, nice weather, food, etc. It takes tremendous hubris to tell someone somewhere else that he/she ought to get involved in a political struggle, that his/her country ought to be embroiled in conflict, that his/her children ought to know the sound of bombs or gunfire. As we learned in the Iraq fiasco, Americans fall for any romantic story about eradicating evil and bringing women's rights to the third world. I think it's time that people woke up and realized that the US has no moral high ground and that it's all about controlling resources and harming current and potential enemies (like China).

tokenadult 17y ago

No, my kind of thinking led to the people power revolution in the Philippines and the mostly peaceful democratic transitions in Taiwan and south Korea. Oh, I almost forgot the best example of all: the peaceful democratic transitions in Hungary, east Germany, and a few other Warsaw Pact countries.

grandalf 17y ago
Your way of thinking on whose part? Are you saying that opinionated Americans deserve credit for those peaceful democratic transitions? ... that American neocons do? I have no problem with people in their own country deciding to dislike the regime and trying to act politically to change it. That's organic democracy. I have a big problem with armchair revolutionaries in the US encouraging people to sacrifice their own lives so in a revolution. Few political goals are worth anyone's life, and most people weighing in against China are part of various interest groups who stand to gain from China's turmoil or demise. It's only politicians who think that their own political goals/aspirations are worth the lives of others. How many lives is it worth to accelerate China's liberalization by one year? How many is it worth to make the Iraqi people have an election? I love the idea of organic, heroic revolution toward democracy and the creation of transparent, non-corrupt institutions as much as the next guy, but I have a big problem with American interests trying to spark revolutions around the world. I think westerners have a very strong bias about the sorts of institutions that may be viewed as democratic. I'd argue that, for example, Islam is a heavily decentralized, democratic institution. So I'm highly cynical when the US steps in, requires secularism, and picks winners and losers, while telling all of us sitting on our couches back in America that the reason is women's rights, etc. That's nonsense, the truth is that we just like picking winners and losers but our leaders have realized that they get a lot more mileage selling war when there is a set of underlying humanitarian talking points. Even in the absence of perfect political institutions, people lead happy, fruitful, day to day lives. They enjoy their work, their families, nice weather, food, etc. It takes tremendous hubris to tell someone somewhere else that he/she ought to get involved in a political struggle, that his/her country ought to be embroiled in conflict, that his/her children ought to know the sound of bombs or gunfire. As we learned in the Iraq fiasco, Americans fall for any romantic story about eradicating evil and bringing women's rights to the third world. I think it's time that people woke up and realized that the US has no moral high ground and that it's all about controlling resources and harming current and potential enemies (like China).