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> Free will is the sensation of being in a brain that models counterfactuals No. Free will is the ability to make a choice not completely dependent on history.

by 77pt77 10y ago

0134340 10y ago
I don't consider that free will then, that would just be "not completely" free will. If it's not dependent on a history, what would be the directive that effects the choice? To me, the notion of free will just defeats the ubiquitous cause-effect nature in everyday life and observance. What would be the nature of the effector that makes the "free" choice then?
Natsu 10y ago
That depends on the person defining it. Why can't it be the outcome my brain has determined for me to take which I subjectively understand as a self-chosen action? That may well depend on my history--my emotions, memories and all the things that shape me--but those are more reasons than constraints. Isn't that like saying I want to fly, so I don't have free will if I can't?
CamperBob2 10y ago
Would flipping a coin count? If you respond, "No, because the particles that make up the coin and the muscles that drive my thumbnail have a history that determines the outcome," then how about a slight variation? "I can't decide what to do. I have no idea what time it is, so if the minute digit on my clock is odd, I'll do X, otherwise I'll do Y." Here I've explicitly refrained from using either a source of randomness or anything else with its own history to determine my fate. The decision to consult the clock might have been an act of free will on my part, but the outcome certainly wasn't.
Retra 10y ago
I don't see why anyone should accept a useless definition as a correct one. Nobody would argue that they had free will if they didn't feel like they had free will. Nobody is positing baseless metaphysical nonsense without some reverence in their actual experiences. If you want to usefully discuss free will, you have to account for the sensation of free will, not just some abstract model that you've merely assembled grammatical statements from.

> Free will is the sensation of being in a brain that models counterfactuals No. Free will is the ability to make a choice not completely dependent on history.

by 77pt77 10y ago

> Free will is the sensation of being in a brain that models counterfactuals No. Free will is the ability to make a choice not completely dependent on history.

0134340 10y ago

I don't consider that free will then, that would just be "not completely" free will. If it's not dependent on a history, what would be the directive that effects the choice? To me, the notion of free will just defeats the ubiquitous cause-effect nature in everyday life and observance. What would be the nature of the effector that makes the "free" choice then?

Natsu 10y ago

That depends on the person defining it. Why can't it be the outcome my brain has determined for me to take which I subjectively understand as a self-chosen action? That may well depend on my history--my emotions, memories and all the things that shape me--but those are more reasons than constraints. Isn't that like saying I want to fly, so I don't have free will if I can't?

CamperBob2 10y ago

Would flipping a coin count? If you respond, "No, because the particles that make up the coin and the muscles that drive my thumbnail have a history that determines the outcome," then how about a slight variation? "I can't decide what to do. I have no idea what time it is, so if the minute digit on my clock is odd, I'll do X, otherwise I'll do Y." Here I've explicitly refrained from using either a source of randomness or anything else with its own history to determine my fate. The decision to consult the clock might have been an act of free will on my part, but the outcome certainly wasn't.

Retra 10y ago

I don't see why anyone should accept a useless definition as a correct one. Nobody would argue that they had free will if they didn't feel like they had free will. Nobody is positing baseless metaphysical nonsense without some reverence in their actual experiences. If you want to usefully discuss free will, you have to account for the sensation of free will, not just some abstract model that you've merely assembled grammatical statements from.