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None of those harassment campaigns were initiated because the targets were white, they were because of specific things they had said or causes they had supporte

None of those harassment campaigns were initiated because the targets were white, they were because of specific things they had said or causes they had supported. Which doesn't mean they deserve the abuse of course, but it's not really salient to the issue of certain groups of twitter users regularly and disproportionately receiving abuse because of their race/sex/religion/etc. Leslie Jones calling out 'white people' is not racism. Black Americans expressing negative sentiments about white Americans is definitionally different from racism. I wouldn't say it's necessarily the most productive way to challenge white supremacy, but it's not of a piece with the centuries old and still strong system of dehumanizing, oppressing and killing people of a specific race in America.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> Black Americans expressing negative sentiments about white Americans is definitionally different from racism. No, its not. > I wouldn't say it's necessarily tasteful on Jones' part, but it's not of a piece with the centuries old and still strong system of dehumanizing, oppressing and killing people of a specific race in America. That doesn't mean that its "definitionally different from racism", that just means its not an aspect of a particular course of racism. Ideally, we want to call out and stop racism before it manifests in a course like that, rather than only afterwards. (Which is not to say that a course with that history, and the kind of continuation that anti-black racism in the US still has, is not a more significant concern -- just that racism doesn't become racism only after it has successfully managed to justify generations of crimes against humanity.)
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  > No, its not. Yes, it is. This is the crux of what most white Americans don't get about race in America. Anti-black racism originated from a thesis of racial inferiority. The anti-white "racism" the Breitbart article cites clearly doesn't have a founding thesis that "white people are inherently inferior". It's actually just a critique of the myriad ways white 'culture' perpetuates anti-black (and anti anything but straight white male) sentiments and beliefs. Certainly, I don't think pithy tweets are the best way to advance these critiques, but they're not being written for the benefit of cerebral tech bros like us, they're being written to offer some relief and solidarity for others whose lives are materially affected by white bullshit.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Yes, it is. No, its not. (Isn't this fun?) > This is the crux of what most white Americans don't get about race in America. Having spent much of my childhood being called a "nigger" by White Americans (and some, though less, being called a "zebra" or "oreo" by Black Americans), I really don't need any lectures from anyone about what "most White Americans" don't get about race in America. And while there are certainly many things that many (or even most) White Americans don't get about race in America, what some (but, IME and AFAICT more generally, not most) Black Americans (and, even more paternalistic white-knighting White Americans) don't get is that negative racial stereotyping both is and promotes racism no matter the race of the proponent of the stereotype or the race targeted by the stereotype. EDIT: I wanted to add a comment on this: > Certainly, I don't think pithy tweets are the best way to advance these critiques, but they're not being written for the benefit of cerebral tech bros like us, they're being written to offer some relief and solidarity for others whose lives are materially affected by white bullshit. The fact that a racist utterance provides some relief to an audience that has had negative experiences doesn't make it any less racist. Heck, one of the main uses of anti-black racism by white economic and political elites in the US has been to offer some relief and (illusion of) solidarity to poorer white Americans suffering from adverse conditions by directing the blame at blacks in general.
    - MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
      I apologize. I see that I've made wrong assumptions here. You're right, racial stereotyping of any kind is bad; I was wrong to argue otherwise. I got on my paternalistic white-knighting horse because I made the (racist?) assumption that you were white, and I'm inclined to argue against other white people accusing others of racism. I guess it comes from my own toxic white guilt. But is it a completely wrongheaded impulse, to try to police other white people who are trying to argue that American racism goes equally both ways? That's what the Breitbart article is implying, that Jones was being just as toxic as Milo, isn't it? My argument that anti-white racism is definitionally impossible may be overly radical, but don't you have to somewhere take account of the fact that anti-white racism doesn't have nearly the same material impact on it's targets and isn't really a structural part of political and economic systems in America?

dragonwriter 10y ago

> Black Americans expressing negative sentiments about white Americans is definitionally different from racism. No, its not. > I wouldn't say it's necessarily tasteful on Jones' part, but it's not of a piece with the centuries old and still strong system of dehumanizing, oppressing and killing people of a specific race in America. That doesn't mean that its "definitionally different from racism", that just means its not an aspect of a particular course of racism. Ideally, we want to call out and stop racism before it manifests in a course like that, rather than only afterwards. (Which is not to say that a course with that history, and the kind of continuation that anti-black racism in the US still has, is not a more significant concern -- just that racism doesn't become racism only after it has successfully managed to justify generations of crimes against humanity.)

MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
> No, its not. Yes, it is. This is the crux of what most white Americans don't get about race in America. Anti-black racism originated from a thesis of racial inferiority. The anti-white "racism" the Breitbart article cites clearly doesn't have a founding thesis that "white people are inherently inferior". It's actually just a critique of the myriad ways white 'culture' perpetuates anti-black (and anti anything but straight white male) sentiments and beliefs. Certainly, I don't think pithy tweets are the best way to advance these critiques, but they're not being written for the benefit of cerebral tech bros like us, they're being written to offer some relief and solidarity for others whose lives are materially affected by white bullshit.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Yes, it is. No, its not. (Isn't this fun?) > This is the crux of what most white Americans don't get about race in America. Having spent much of my childhood being called a "nigger" by White Americans (and some, though less, being called a "zebra" or "oreo" by Black Americans), I really don't need any lectures from anyone about what "most White Americans" don't get about race in America. And while there are certainly many things that many (or even most) White Americans don't get about race in America, what some (but, IME and AFAICT more generally, not most) Black Americans (and, even more paternalistic white-knighting White Americans) don't get is that negative racial stereotyping both is and promotes racism no matter the race of the proponent of the stereotype or the race targeted by the stereotype. EDIT: I wanted to add a comment on this: > Certainly, I don't think pithy tweets are the best way to advance these critiques, but they're not being written for the benefit of cerebral tech bros like us, they're being written to offer some relief and solidarity for others whose lives are materially affected by white bullshit. The fact that a racist utterance provides some relief to an audience that has had negative experiences doesn't make it any less racist. Heck, one of the main uses of anti-black racism by white economic and political elites in the US has been to offer some relief and (illusion of) solidarity to poorer white Americans suffering from adverse conditions by directing the blame at blacks in general.
  - MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
    I apologize. I see that I've made wrong assumptions here. You're right, racial stereotyping of any kind is bad; I was wrong to argue otherwise. I got on my paternalistic white-knighting horse because I made the (racist?) assumption that you were white, and I'm inclined to argue against other white people accusing others of racism. I guess it comes from my own toxic white guilt. But is it a completely wrongheaded impulse, to try to police other white people who are trying to argue that American racism goes equally both ways? That's what the Breitbart article is implying, that Jones was being just as toxic as Milo, isn't it? My argument that anti-white racism is definitionally impossible may be overly radical, but don't you have to somewhere take account of the fact that anti-white racism doesn't have nearly the same material impact on it's targets and isn't really a structural part of political and economic systems in America?