4 ms·

I wonder how much of an improvement this will be over microphone arrays and determining direction in software.

by hantusk 10y ago

alister 10y ago
I've marveled at the difficulty of determining the direction and origin of unknown sounds, esp. low pitch sounds. For example, the people of Windsor, Ontario, Canada, have been hearing a rumbling noise for six years and have been unable to locate it, although they finally have a theory that it's coming from a blast furnace[1]. We're talking about a city of 210,000 where a large segment of the city have regularly heard it over the span of 6 years: "In 2012, more than 22,000 people dialled in to a local teleconference about the hum [to voice their concerns]." I'm surprised that there isn't an instrument that you can flip on and have it reliably locate a continuous sound that lasts for hours or days at a time. Is there something about low pitch sounds and vibrations that make them particularly hard for direction finding tools? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/07/windsor-hum-canada-zug-island-united-states https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/07/windsor-hum-ca...
- IanCal 10y ago
  Random thoughts about the difficulties from someone who definitely isn't an expert: Low frequency noise is harder to block with materials, so you can't put a microphone in a foam box with one side open then swing it around looking for the direction the sound is loudest. If it travels further (I guess it should if it's harder to block) then there's a greater chance anything you can hear is coming from further away. If it's far away, it's harder to triangulate (because you need to go further between measurements). If it's shaking the ground, does that mean the strength only falls off linearly? Do you get surface 'waves' that are then only spreading out linearly? edit - This is a really interesting question though, I guess it is fairly hard, but it does feel like it should be simple.
  - radiowave 10y ago
    If it's shaking the ground, then every surface near you (which is sufficiently rigidly attached to the ground) will be producing sound waves. Hence even if you can identify a direction to the sound, it's probably a red herring.
- dharma1 10y ago
  Human hearing can't really localise sounds below 100hz-ish, but it should certainly be possible to triangulate this 35hz hum with microphones. Probably even easier ways to rule out the cause - turn the furnace off and see if the hum stops? Seems like the cause is known in this case but they just don't want to address it
  - snovv_crash 10y ago
    Often blast furnaces and smelters can't be turned off.
    - kwhitefoot 10y ago
      True but they can be turned "up" or "down". Reducing the air flow to the lowest value that can be sustained for, say, 12 hours would give an opportunity to find out if the intensity and type of noise has changed. Do that a few times and see if it is repeatable.
- radarsat1 10y ago
  Don't know about the specifics of that case, but I can imagine that for low-frequency pervasive sounds, they bounce everywhere and thus any such equipment would measure them as "coming from everywhere", because they literally are. There's a source, but it's masked completely by reverberation effects. At some point with enough diffusion there is very little signal in the noise, if that helps..
  - pierrebai 10y ago
    I still don't understand why they could not locate it. Sounds falls off with the square of the distance. A single, localized measurement can have a hard time pinning a direction, but a series of sample over an area will give you a 3D curve of intensity with a maxima near the source...
- jpfed 10y ago
  Low frequency sounds are more difficult to localize than high frequency sounds, for a variety of reasons. I would be surprised, though, if a widely-spread grid of detectors wouldn't be able to find it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization#Evaluation_for_low_frequencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization#Evaluation_...

I wonder how much of an improvement this will be over microphone arrays and determining direction in software.

by hantusk 10y ago

I wonder how much of an improvement this will be over microphone arrays and determining direction in software.

I've marveled at the difficulty of determining the direction and origin of unknown sounds, esp. low pitch sounds. For example, the people of Windsor, Ontario, Canada, have been hearing a rumbling noise for six years and have been unable to locate it, although they finally have a theory that it's coming from a blast furnace[1]. We're talking about a city of 210,000 where a large segment of the city have regularly heard it over the span of 6 years: "In 2012, more than 22,000 people dialled in to a local teleconference about the hum [to voice their concerns]." I'm surprised that there isn't an instrument that you can flip on and have it reliably locate a continuous sound that lasts for hours or days at a time. Is there something about low pitch sounds and vibrations that make them particularly hard for direction finding tools? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/07/windsor-hum-canada-zug-island-united-states https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/07/windsor-hum-ca...

IanCal 10y ago
Random thoughts about the difficulties from someone who definitely isn't an expert: Low frequency noise is harder to block with materials, so you can't put a microphone in a foam box with one side open then swing it around looking for the direction the sound is loudest. If it travels further (I guess it should if it's harder to block) then there's a greater chance anything you can hear is coming from further away. If it's far away, it's harder to triangulate (because you need to go further between measurements). If it's shaking the ground, does that mean the strength only falls off linearly? Do you get surface 'waves' that are then only spreading out linearly? edit - This is a really interesting question though, I guess it is fairly hard, but it does feel like it should be simple.
- radiowave 10y ago
  If it's shaking the ground, then every surface near you (which is sufficiently rigidly attached to the ground) will be producing sound waves. Hence even if you can identify a direction to the sound, it's probably a red herring.
dharma1 10y ago
Human hearing can't really localise sounds below 100hz-ish, but it should certainly be possible to triangulate this 35hz hum with microphones. Probably even easier ways to rule out the cause - turn the furnace off and see if the hum stops? Seems like the cause is known in this case but they just don't want to address it
- snovv_crash 10y ago
  Often blast furnaces and smelters can't be turned off.
  - kwhitefoot 10y ago
    True but they can be turned "up" or "down". Reducing the air flow to the lowest value that can be sustained for, say, 12 hours would give an opportunity to find out if the intensity and type of noise has changed. Do that a few times and see if it is repeatable.
radarsat1 10y ago
Don't know about the specifics of that case, but I can imagine that for low-frequency pervasive sounds, they bounce everywhere and thus any such equipment would measure them as "coming from everywhere", because they literally are. There's a source, but it's masked completely by reverberation effects. At some point with enough diffusion there is very little signal in the noise, if that helps..
- pierrebai 10y ago
  I still don't understand why they could not locate it. Sounds falls off with the square of the distance. A single, localized measurement can have a hard time pinning a direction, but a series of sample over an area will give you a 3D curve of intensity with a maxima near the source...
jpfed 10y ago
Low frequency sounds are more difficult to localize than high frequency sounds, for a variety of reasons. I would be surprised, though, if a widely-spread grid of detectors wouldn't be able to find it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization#Evaluation_for_low_frequencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization#Evaluation_...