7 ms·

Can someone clarify what the hell happened here? Why would anyone think that it is appropriate to object to a random person taking a photo of a random public bu

by eykanal 10y ago

Can someone clarify what the hell happened here? Why would anyone think that it is appropriate to object to a random person taking a photo of a random public building in one of the largest cities in the world, particularly given that there are tens of thousands of photos of this building already available freely online from virtually every angle?

jrockway 10y ago
No idea. If I were being very cynical, I imagine that he had a "security training" and wanted to get an extra gold star. The Port Authority seems to think that photographers are Public Enemy Number One, even prohibiting selfies on their trains, technically. He seemed like a nice guy who cared about his job, maybe a civil engineer or something. He wasn't dressed as though he were in a security position, or anything. (His badge didn't say.)
- solotronics 10y ago
  This whole scenario comes across as very dystopian.
  - jrockway 10y ago
    It's just one individual acting on his own authority. I don't think we're quite at dystopian levels yet. Merely annoying at this point.
    - stcredzero 10y ago
      I don't think we're quite at dystopian levels yet. Oh no, we are. If you would consider the plight of a peasant in Tsarist Russia dystopian, then we are in the 21st century industrialized 1st world version already. We're definitely not too close to THX-1138 or 1984. But we are in the same quadrant as Brave New World and The Machine Stops.
rbcgerard 10y ago
after 9/11 basically every employee of a federal building/critical piece of infrastructure + the associated security/police were on the look out for people "casing" their facilities, i.e. planning an attack, taking pictures etc. This eventually morphed into hassling, arresting anyone taking photos of these sites...link below has some good info https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/09/24/homeland-security-focuses-on-suspicious-activity-outside-refineries/ https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/09/24/homeland-securi...
- peterbonney 10y ago
  I love that in the era of the 15 megapixel smartphone camera, someone thinks a person with a 4x5 and a freaking tripod is taking a picture for nefarious purposes.
  - jrockway 10y ago
    I bet nobody would have even noticed if I were using a 5DR hand-held.
    - gm-conspiracy 10y ago
      Excellent picture, but at 4x5 could you upload something higher res. for us to look at, please?
      - jrockway 10y ago
        I can when I get home, but I use a flatbed scanner to digitize and it just doesn't get much more detail than that. You need a drum scanner, which are expensive ;)
        gm-conspiracy 10y ago
        Indeed. The same way the Kai's PowerGoo sample faces were scanned.
  - 10y ago
rdtsc 10y ago
Guessing security guard was told to watch for the "terrorists". In his head he was the hero everyone would sing songs about how he saved the city from the next 9/11. And of course, if someone takes a picture with a 4x5 camera it means they are serious. > "Why would you photograph that? Photograph the WTC. I like that part. He tells a photographer who cared enough to invest in a 4x5 camera what to photograph. "You don't know what is pretty. I'll tell you what's pretty, go shoot that instead".
- jrockway 10y ago
  I do like the WTC, but it is hard to photograph in B&W on cloudless days because it's the same color as the sky. I "appreciated" the creative input. With some clouds around it looks better: https://goo.gl/photos/M3aTnTZ7uso4eqSA6 https://goo.gl/photos/M3aTnTZ7uso4eqSA6 Finally, a professional photographer is probably going to be carrying a camera that's 10x more expensive than mine. I bought my Toyo 45CF for $500 used.
  - rdtsc 10y ago
    I like that picture! Great work, thanks for sharing. Do you license or sell your work? Played a bit with a 4x5 camera in the past. It was amazing and confusing how much stuff can be done (selective focus, perspective control) by adjusting the front and back independently.
    - jrockway 10y ago
      Thanks! You can control the image plane, the focal plane, and what part of the image circle you want to use. It's wonderful. I really like pictures of tall things with straight lines (not "tilted up" as what happens when the film plane is not parallel to the subject), so it's the right camera for me, because you can use the bottom portion of the image circle to get that field of view while still keeping the film parallel to the subject. Nobody has ever asked to licence my photos. Please consider them CC-BY. Send me an email if you want something more concrete than a HN comment.
pbreit 10y ago
The objection is preposterous but it is hardly a "random public building". It is in fact one of the prime targets of evil-doers who would be trying to effect mass casualties in Manhattan.
- gohrt 10y ago
  Manhattan has millions of people in a small area. Attacking random public building is capable of mass casualties.
InclinedPlane 10y ago
If you see something, say something. Right? There's not exactly a national campaign to train people on what either "something" should be though.
cmg 10y ago
I was yelled at by security and threatened with arrest for taking photos of the Stamford Cone[1], which is on the property of UBS Bank[2]. I was on the sidewalk between the trees and the road that you can clearly see in the Street View link, with my little point & shoot Sony camera when the security guard came out of the building yelling. This must have been 2003-2004. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamford_Cone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamford_Cone [2] https://goo.gl/maps/1Yg8WCg3Rqm https://goo.gl/maps/1Yg8WCg3Rqm
- koenigdavidmj 10y ago
  I'm surprised at the guard being involved, but it's possible this could be for copyright reasons rather than security. The Portlandia statue near Portland's city hall, for instance, is noted for its artist's heavyhanded protection of his rights (at least for a piece of public art).
busterarm 10y ago
An angle that nobody else has brought up... The Port Authority authority was set up under the instigation of Robert Moses by Al Smith to provide Moses with extra-legal authority to complete his works projects and otherwise execute his whims. There was a point in time in this city when the head of the Port Authority had more power than the Mayor of New York. The power exercised by the Authority and attitude of secrecy are institutional. It predated 9/11 and it will never go away.
shawn-butler 10y ago
Security guards are not hired or paid for their intelligence or ability to deescalate a situation or anything remotely related to security. They are paid to be imposing and bully people and occupy a space. If one is ever bothering you for doing something you have every right to do simply call the police. Especially if a security guard obstructs your movement or touches you. Police generally dislike bully security guards as much as you do and will tell them to knock it off immediately. A pattern of harassment will generally get the security guard fired.
- fapjacks 10y ago
  Just to add to what you're saying... Even most security guards dislike bully security guards as much as you do. It's all about the power trip, and nobody likes a person abusing their authority, especially if that authority is simply perceived and not real.
- gohrt 10y ago
  This is the first time I've heard someone advise calling the police to protect one's right to photograph a public building.
  - shawn-butler 10y ago
    Yes, the ACLU has some guidance for photographers[0] of how to do deal appropriately with law enforcement. That is how much of a problem it has become. Generally you have a higher probability of a trained police officer knowing and understanding a photographers rights under the law than a security guard. Also an important distinction remains between photographs and video which might contain audio. There can be different rules regarding recording audio. [0]: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/photographers-what-do-if-you-are-stopped-or-detained-taking-photographs https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/photographers-what-do-...
jlg23 10y ago
I think it is less about pictures being taken but a guy given a badge and now he is high on [perceived] power. Most of the time one can deal with them by a friendly request for clarification on which grounds they want one to do something. For the remaining few, if one has the time: Just let them call the cops. I myself have handed out badges and walkie talkies to untrained "security" folks at events and my estimate is that I had to pull about 10% out during their shift due to abuse of power and tell about 80% to not come back after their shift. From a security perspective, the 5% or so we had as regulars on staff were the only ones you'd rely on; that were also the folks who spend most of their shift just sitting around, but when there are real problems they deal with them level headed but efficiently. If it helps the OP: The guy's superior is probably just as annoyed as you are by his guard's behavior but he does not have the luxury to simply replace him due to crappy pay and therefore a lack of applicants.

by eykanal 10y ago

jrockway 10y ago

No idea. If I were being very cynical, I imagine that he had a "security training" and wanted to get an extra gold star. The Port Authority seems to think that photographers are Public Enemy Number One, even prohibiting selfies on their trains, technically. He seemed like a nice guy who cared about his job, maybe a civil engineer or something. He wasn't dressed as though he were in a security position, or anything. (His badge didn't say.)

solotronics 10y ago
This whole scenario comes across as very dystopian.
- jrockway 10y ago
  It's just one individual acting on his own authority. I don't think we're quite at dystopian levels yet. Merely annoying at this point.
  - stcredzero 10y ago
    I don't think we're quite at dystopian levels yet. Oh no, we are. If you would consider the plight of a peasant in Tsarist Russia dystopian, then we are in the 21st century industrialized 1st world version already. We're definitely not too close to THX-1138 or 1984. But we are in the same quadrant as Brave New World and The Machine Stops.

rbcgerard 10y ago

after 9/11 basically every employee of a federal building/critical piece of infrastructure + the associated security/police were on the look out for people "casing" their facilities, i.e. planning an attack, taking pictures etc. This eventually morphed into hassling, arresting anyone taking photos of these sites...link below has some good info https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/09/24/homeland-security-focuses-on-suspicious-activity-outside-refineries/ https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/09/24/homeland-securi...

peterbonney 10y ago
I love that in the era of the 15 megapixel smartphone camera, someone thinks a person with a 4x5 and a freaking tripod is taking a picture for nefarious purposes.
- jrockway 10y ago
  I bet nobody would have even noticed if I were using a 5DR hand-held.
  - gm-conspiracy 10y ago
    Excellent picture, but at 4x5 could you upload something higher res. for us to look at, please?
    - jrockway 10y ago
      I can when I get home, but I use a flatbed scanner to digitize and it just doesn't get much more detail than that. You need a drum scanner, which are expensive ;)
      - gm-conspiracy 10y ago
        Indeed. The same way the Kai's PowerGoo sample faces were scanned.
- 10y ago

rdtsc 10y ago

Guessing security guard was told to watch for the "terrorists". In his head he was the hero everyone would sing songs about how he saved the city from the next 9/11. And of course, if someone takes a picture with a 4x5 camera it means they are serious. > "Why would you photograph that? Photograph the WTC. I like that part. He tells a photographer who cared enough to invest in a 4x5 camera what to photograph. "You don't know what is pretty. I'll tell you what's pretty, go shoot that instead".

jrockway 10y ago
I do like the WTC, but it is hard to photograph in B&W on cloudless days because it's the same color as the sky. I "appreciated" the creative input. With some clouds around it looks better: https://goo.gl/photos/M3aTnTZ7uso4eqSA6 https://goo.gl/photos/M3aTnTZ7uso4eqSA6 Finally, a professional photographer is probably going to be carrying a camera that's 10x more expensive than mine. I bought my Toyo 45CF for $500 used.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  I like that picture! Great work, thanks for sharing. Do you license or sell your work? Played a bit with a 4x5 camera in the past. It was amazing and confusing how much stuff can be done (selective focus, perspective control) by adjusting the front and back independently.
  - jrockway 10y ago
    Thanks! You can control the image plane, the focal plane, and what part of the image circle you want to use. It's wonderful. I really like pictures of tall things with straight lines (not "tilted up" as what happens when the film plane is not parallel to the subject), so it's the right camera for me, because you can use the bottom portion of the image circle to get that field of view while still keeping the film parallel to the subject. Nobody has ever asked to licence my photos. Please consider them CC-BY. Send me an email if you want something more concrete than a HN comment.

pbreit 10y ago

The objection is preposterous but it is hardly a "random public building". It is in fact one of the prime targets of evil-doers who would be trying to effect mass casualties in Manhattan.

gohrt 10y ago
Manhattan has millions of people in a small area. Attacking random public building is capable of mass casualties.

InclinedPlane 10y ago

If you see something, say something. Right? There's not exactly a national campaign to train people on what either "something" should be though.

cmg 10y ago

I was yelled at by security and threatened with arrest for taking photos of the Stamford Cone[1], which is on the property of UBS Bank[2]. I was on the sidewalk between the trees and the road that you can clearly see in the Street View link, with my little point & shoot Sony camera when the security guard came out of the building yelling. This must have been 2003-2004. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamford_Cone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamford_Cone [2] https://goo.gl/maps/1Yg8WCg3Rqm https://goo.gl/maps/1Yg8WCg3Rqm

koenigdavidmj 10y ago
I'm surprised at the guard being involved, but it's possible this could be for copyright reasons rather than security. The Portlandia statue near Portland's city hall, for instance, is noted for its artist's heavyhanded protection of his rights (at least for a piece of public art).

busterarm 10y ago

An angle that nobody else has brought up... The Port Authority authority was set up under the instigation of Robert Moses by Al Smith to provide Moses with extra-legal authority to complete his works projects and otherwise execute his whims. There was a point in time in this city when the head of the Port Authority had more power than the Mayor of New York. The power exercised by the Authority and attitude of secrecy are institutional. It predated 9/11 and it will never go away.

shawn-butler 10y ago

Security guards are not hired or paid for their intelligence or ability to deescalate a situation or anything remotely related to security. They are paid to be imposing and bully people and occupy a space. If one is ever bothering you for doing something you have every right to do simply call the police. Especially if a security guard obstructs your movement or touches you. Police generally dislike bully security guards as much as you do and will tell them to knock it off immediately. A pattern of harassment will generally get the security guard fired.

fapjacks 10y ago
Just to add to what you're saying... Even most security guards dislike bully security guards as much as you do. It's all about the power trip, and nobody likes a person abusing their authority, especially if that authority is simply perceived and not real.
gohrt 10y ago
This is the first time I've heard someone advise calling the police to protect one's right to photograph a public building.
- shawn-butler 10y ago
  Yes, the ACLU has some guidance for photographers[0] of how to do deal appropriately with law enforcement. That is how much of a problem it has become. Generally you have a higher probability of a trained police officer knowing and understanding a photographers rights under the law than a security guard. Also an important distinction remains between photographs and video which might contain audio. There can be different rules regarding recording audio. [0]: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/photographers-what-do-if-you-are-stopped-or-detained-taking-photographs https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/photographers-what-do-...

jlg23 10y ago

I think it is less about pictures being taken but a guy given a badge and now he is high on [perceived] power. Most of the time one can deal with them by a friendly request for clarification on which grounds they want one to do something. For the remaining few, if one has the time: Just let them call the cops. I myself have handed out badges and walkie talkies to untrained "security" folks at events and my estimate is that I had to pull about 10% out during their shift due to abuse of power and tell about 80% to not come back after their shift. From a security perspective, the 5% or so we had as regulars on staff were the only ones you'd rely on; that were also the folks who spend most of their shift just sitting around, but when there are real problems they deal with them level headed but efficiently. If it helps the OP: The guy's superior is probably just as annoyed as you are by his guard's behavior but he does not have the luxury to simply replace him due to crappy pay and therefore a lack of applicants.