5 ms·

Broken features aren't used

50 points by vog 10y ago

jlgaddis 10y ago
I remember hearing about some feature being removed from OpenSSL not long ago after it was discovered that it couldn't have been used because... it didn't actually compile(?), if memory serves. Sorry, I don't remember all the details at the moment (it's almost 7am and I've been awake for ~36 hours). I'm assuming that's what this is about but maybe not.
- shalmanese 10y ago
  That was the notorious Dual_EC_DRGB which was backdoored by the NSA but was broken inside of OpenSSL without anyone noticing: https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/12/22/the-openssl-software-bug-that-saves-you-from-surveillance/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/12/22/the-openssl-soft...
BWStearns 10y ago
There is also the corollary that if you have a feature that no one uses then make sure it works before deciding that your users don't like it. A feature can be awesome in its desired form but if it's janky as hell or unreliable then it won't get used. If the implementation sucks it's not proof that the feature sucks.
- granos 10y ago
  The contrapositive would then be that if you find some really janky/unreliable feature that people are using, it must be pretty important to them and you should tread lightly when modifying it.
  - BWStearns 10y ago
    True. I should have specified that the volume of use for poorly implemented features is only not useful for determining that it is a bad feature. Lots of use indicates that it may be a great feature, or that it's not the feature you thought it was (https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/)
paol 10y ago
Rather bizarre logic regarding unit tests. Surely the correct thing to do is to add telemetry to the application to get metrics on feature usage. Of course this may not be practical for small utilities, like ls in the example. By the way ls -p (well, -F actually) was quite useful in the time before coloured output. I remember it being turned on by default on some systems I used way back when.
- masklinn 10y ago
  > Of course this may not be practical for small utilities It's utterly undoable for utilities (small or not) even if you ignore the likely blowback à la W10 telemetry.
  - paol 10y ago
    Lots of large applications have extensive telemetry without any significant blowback (as far as I'm aware). MS Office, Firefox, Chrome, ... It's not undoable for utilities either, just the effort/benefit ratio probably doesn't justify it.
    - masklinn 10y ago
      > Lots of large applications have extensive telemetry without any significant blowback (as far as I'm aware). MS Office, Firefox, Chrome, ... Not sure about the others, but AFAIK Firefox telemetry is only enabled (or at least sent to Mozilla) on pre-release channels. > It's not undoable for utilities either It's undoable in the sense that you'll be bundling more telemetry code than there is actual utility code, and downstream is going to remove it as soon as it lands.
      - vertex-four 10y ago
        Firefox Health Report is on and shared with Mozilla by default on release builds - it prompts you about it on first run. There's additional telemetry in pre-release builds.
- cm3 10y ago
cm3 10y ago
The only reliable way to find out who uses a feature is to release with it removed. And that is the problem.
coldcog 10y ago
Have just added alias ls="ls -p" to my .bashrc.
- reacweb 10y ago
  "ls -F" is more usual
  - bballer 10y ago
    I like "ls -Fl --color"
martin-adams 10y ago
What about adding a deprecation notice and see who comes screaming.
- gkya 10y ago
  Depends. You want only the contents of a directory when you ls it. Many scripts and programs depend on determinable output from utilities like ls, find, ps, etc.
  - martin-adams 10y ago
    Very true. You could also add a suppression flag to keep scripts running. I think I'd rather have a script die from a deprecation notice than the feature being removed.
    - gkya 10y ago
      The thing is that it may not die, but instead use the warning as input.
caf 10y ago
This is pretty much the only way drivers for very old hardware get removed from Linux, too. If it's been broken for years without any complaint...
stevekemp 10y ago
Interestingly I use `ls -p` all the time, just to list directories: # ls for Directories. function lsd { ls -1p $* | grep '/$' } Works nicely.
- hehheh 10y ago
  I use that or "ls -1 */."
  - bonzini 10y ago
    Don't you need -d as well (as in "ls -d /." or "ls -d /")?
lmm 10y ago
Tests prevent you from accidentally breaking features. If you want to deliberately break a feature to see whether anyone uses it, you can still do that. Surely it's better for this to be a conscious decision rather than random accident.
erez 10y ago
This is a weird one, but it seems the point isn't "Broken features aren't used" but rather "unused features don't get maintained and tend to break" and also the point of the article isn't broken features but "on whether to remove features, and which ones to remove"
lokedhs 10y ago
I have used -F (a bit more extensive version of -p) since forever. Adding an alias from ls to "ls -F" is the first thing I do on a new system. I surely can't be the only one, and I'm surprised that the article's author suggested it's never used.

50 points by vog 10y ago

I remember hearing about some feature being removed from OpenSSL not long ago after it was discovered that it couldn't have been used because... it didn't actually compile(?), if memory serves. Sorry, I don't remember all the details at the moment (it's almost 7am and I've been awake for ~36 hours). I'm assuming that's what this is about but maybe not.

shalmanese 10y ago
That was the notorious Dual_EC_DRGB which was backdoored by the NSA but was broken inside of OpenSSL without anyone noticing: https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/12/22/the-openssl-software-bug-that-saves-you-from-surveillance/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/12/22/the-openssl-soft...

BWStearns 10y ago

There is also the corollary that if you have a feature that no one uses then make sure it works before deciding that your users don't like it. A feature can be awesome in its desired form but if it's janky as hell or unreliable then it won't get used. If the implementation sucks it's not proof that the feature sucks.

granos 10y ago
The contrapositive would then be that if you find some really janky/unreliable feature that people are using, it must be pretty important to them and you should tread lightly when modifying it.
- BWStearns 10y ago
  True. I should have specified that the volume of use for poorly implemented features is only not useful for determining that it is a bad feature. Lots of use indicates that it may be a great feature, or that it's not the feature you thought it was (https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/)

paol 10y ago

Rather bizarre logic regarding unit tests. Surely the correct thing to do is to add telemetry to the application to get metrics on feature usage. Of course this may not be practical for small utilities, like ls in the example. By the way ls -p (well, -F actually) was quite useful in the time before coloured output. I remember it being turned on by default on some systems I used way back when.

masklinn 10y ago
> Of course this may not be practical for small utilities It's utterly undoable for utilities (small or not) even if you ignore the likely blowback à la W10 telemetry.
- paol 10y ago
  Lots of large applications have extensive telemetry without any significant blowback (as far as I'm aware). MS Office, Firefox, Chrome, ... It's not undoable for utilities either, just the effort/benefit ratio probably doesn't justify it.
  - masklinn 10y ago
    > Lots of large applications have extensive telemetry without any significant blowback (as far as I'm aware). MS Office, Firefox, Chrome, ... Not sure about the others, but AFAIK Firefox telemetry is only enabled (or at least sent to Mozilla) on pre-release channels. > It's not undoable for utilities either It's undoable in the sense that you'll be bundling more telemetry code than there is actual utility code, and downstream is going to remove it as soon as it lands.
    - vertex-four 10y ago
      Firefox Health Report is on and shared with Mozilla by default on release builds - it prompts you about it on first run. There's additional telemetry in pre-release builds.
cm3 10y ago

cm3 10y ago

The only reliable way to find out who uses a feature is to release with it removed. And that is the problem.

coldcog 10y ago

Have just added alias ls="ls -p" to my .bashrc.

reacweb 10y ago
"ls -F" is more usual
- bballer 10y ago
  I like "ls -Fl --color"

martin-adams 10y ago

What about adding a deprecation notice and see who comes screaming.

gkya 10y ago
Depends. You want only the contents of a directory when you ls it. Many scripts and programs depend on determinable output from utilities like ls, find, ps, etc.
- martin-adams 10y ago
  Very true. You could also add a suppression flag to keep scripts running. I think I'd rather have a script die from a deprecation notice than the feature being removed.
  - gkya 10y ago
    The thing is that it may not die, but instead use the warning as input.

caf 10y ago

This is pretty much the only way drivers for very old hardware get removed from Linux, too. If it's been broken for years without any complaint...

stevekemp 10y ago

Interestingly I use `ls -p` all the time, just to list directories: # ls for Directories. function lsd { ls -1p $* | grep '/$' } Works nicely.

hehheh 10y ago
I use that or "ls -1 */."
- bonzini 10y ago
  Don't you need -d as well (as in "ls -d /." or "ls -d /")?

lmm 10y ago

Tests prevent you from accidentally breaking features. If you want to deliberately break a feature to see whether anyone uses it, you can still do that. Surely it's better for this to be a conscious decision rather than random accident.

erez 10y ago

This is a weird one, but it seems the point isn't "Broken features aren't used" but rather "unused features don't get maintained and tend to break" and also the point of the article isn't broken features but "on whether to remove features, and which ones to remove"

lokedhs 10y ago

I have used -F (a bit more extensive version of -p) since forever. Adding an alias from ls to "ls -F" is the first thing I do on a new system. I surely can't be the only one, and I'm surprised that the article's author suggested it's never used.