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If that is the case, why don't Palestinians have representatives in the Knesset? Why do Israelis claim Israel is the "only democracy in the Middle East" if onl

If that is the case, why don't Palestinians have representatives in the Knesset? Why do Israelis claim Israel is the "only democracy in the Middle East" if only Jews living in the West Bank can vote? Israel can't claim it has autonomy over the West Bank and that Israel is also a democracy as well. It is one or the other.

Shihan 10y ago
What has that to do with the question regarding Google?
- tomlock 10y ago
  What does your answer to the question have to do with Google?
edanm 10y ago
You're taking a complicated issue and trying to turn it into a soundbite. Why does the US claim it's a democracy if Mexicans can't vote in the US, even if they live there? It's because they're not citizens. Similarly, Palestinians living in the West Bank are not citizens of Israel. Other people, including many Arabs, that are citizens of Israel, do vote. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong btw - there's a lot of valid questions around whether it's OK or not that Palestinians are not citizens of Israel even though Israel controls their land (e.g. right of return, the idea that Israel should've annexed the land, etc). I'm just pointing out that what you bring up as a rebuke of Israel really isn't.
- pastProlog 10y ago
  Comparing an 80 year old Palestinian in Nablus whose family has been in Nablus for centuries with a Mexican who moved to the US five years ago is silly. Also, there was a 2000 amnesty bill, so it is Mexicans who chose to move to the US within fifteen years in that category. Also, a Jew who moves into a settlement next to Nablus can vote. You can say Palestine is another country - but then why are settlements and the IDF there? Why does Israel fight UN bills saying Palestine is a country?
  - edanm 10y ago
    My point wasn't to make a direct comparison to Mexicans in the US - my point was that it's citizenship that makes the difference, not physical location. As long as they're not citizens, it makes sense that they don't vote. There's a totally valid discussion around whether they should be citizens, but that's a separate discussion. "You can say Palestine is another country - but then why are settlements and the IDF there?" Well, I think the official position of Israel is that it isn't a separate country, it's a territory that's occupied by Israel, but that Israel chooses not to officially annex. I don't love this arrangement, and I certainly don't like that there continue to be settlements there, but like most people, I don't have an easy solution to this situation. Annexing the lands and turning the Palestinians into citizens means effectively destroying the entire point of Israel's existence (a country for the Jewish religion/nationality). I think the majority of people today consider a two-state solution the only true option - make it actually another country, at which point, as you point out, there can't be settlements there and the IDF would have to completely stay out. But while this is probably a desired situation, it's not the situation now.
- WayneBro 10y ago
  I think American Indians instead of Mexicans would have worked better in your example since the Jews basically kick the Palestinians out of the area in order to take it over.
beagle3 10y ago
Your statement makes no sense. How does control over a piece of land make a difference to democratic status? You could just as well ask why illegal/undocumented mexicans do not have representation in congress. Palestinians have a Palestinian Authority citizenship and passport, and are not Israeli citizens (therefore cannot vote in the Israeli election, and thus have no direct representatives in the Knesset, although there are some Arab-Israeli members of the Knesset who consider themselves Palestinian and do, in some ways, represent them). It so happens that, as a result of complicated and pretty fucked up history, (a) Israel exercises military control of the West Bank, and (b) A small but extremely loud minority of Israelis have built their homes in the West Bank, and the Israeli army looks after their interests. The West Bank is NOT officially a part of Israel, has not been annexed, and plans to do so are not even on any table. Israel used to have exactly the same kind of arrangement (military control, some settlers) in Gaza between 1967 and 2005, at which point, Israeli unilaterally pulled out of Gaza (forcibly moving all Israelis living in Gaza out, and leaving it to Palestinian and PA rule). In a very bloody internal war that also involved fraudulent elections, Hamas took control of Gaza from the PA, and essentially declared war on Israel, causing Israel to enforce a blockade of Gaza. 10 years and thousands of rockets and bombs deployed on both sides later, this is still where it is at. Partially as a result of the experience of pulling out of Gaza, Israel is reluctant to pull out of the West Bank, which -- with some land trade -- was actually the plan. I am not taking sides here, but, by western standards, which include (for example) the right of women to drive and not wear head covering, gay people to be gay, the right to drink alcohol, practice any religion you wish, and stuff like that - Israel indeed is the only democracy in the middle east. Hamas executes gay people. Saudi Arabia just jails them IIRC, and alcohol is verbotten even if you are Christian.
- pastProlog 10y ago
  > You could just as well ask why illegal/undocumented mexicans do not have representation in congress. You're comparing a Mexican who made the decision to cross a border yesterday, or last year, or a decade ago, with say a Palestinian man born in Nablus 75 years ago, whose family has been in Nablus for centuries? With a West Bank settlement which seized land next door, the Jew from Brooklyn who just moved in yesterday, and who is in a West Bank settlement, the Jew can have a Knesset vote but the Palestinian can't because he's not a Jew. Comparing the Mexican to the Palestinian is a laugh. Then you say Palestinians are separate so should not be in the Knesset. The West Bank settlements and IDF in the West Bank belie this. Israel voting in the UN to deny Palestinian statehood belies this. Plenty of statements from Netanyahu and the ruling Likud are that the West Bank was annexed. Also Israel used to "secretly" fund Hamas and Hezbollah as a bulwark against the PLO, PFLP, George Habash etc. That has come out over the years, it mainly came out in the US in the 1980s when Israel and the US were caught arming Hezbollah and Iran (Iran-Contra), but other dribs and drabs came out over the years. The PFLP and elements of Fatah and the PLO were always the main enemy, and Israel has always opposed the secular left vehemently and sometimes supported Hamas. So Israelis condemning Hamas carries little weight. Also, Israel has a large and rapidly growing population of Jewish religious fundamentalists who control ALL marriages in Israel with a Jewish fundamentalist take, and in their communities those women have to cover their heads and shave off their hair, being gay is verboten etc. Israel has a large population of Jews like this.
golergka 10y ago
Your statement about jews is false. There are plenty of arab israelis that have voting rights, who choose to live in A, B and C territories of Judea and Samaria — while due to apartheid PA regime, israeli jews are banned from their territories based on ethnicity.

Shihan 10y ago

What has that to do with the question regarding Google?

tomlock 10y ago
What does your answer to the question have to do with Google?

edanm 10y ago

You're taking a complicated issue and trying to turn it into a soundbite. Why does the US claim it's a democracy if Mexicans can't vote in the US, even if they live there? It's because they're not citizens. Similarly, Palestinians living in the West Bank are not citizens of Israel. Other people, including many Arabs, that are citizens of Israel, do vote. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong btw - there's a lot of valid questions around whether it's OK or not that Palestinians are not citizens of Israel even though Israel controls their land (e.g. right of return, the idea that Israel should've annexed the land, etc). I'm just pointing out that what you bring up as a rebuke of Israel really isn't.

pastProlog 10y ago
Comparing an 80 year old Palestinian in Nablus whose family has been in Nablus for centuries with a Mexican who moved to the US five years ago is silly. Also, there was a 2000 amnesty bill, so it is Mexicans who chose to move to the US within fifteen years in that category. Also, a Jew who moves into a settlement next to Nablus can vote. You can say Palestine is another country - but then why are settlements and the IDF there? Why does Israel fight UN bills saying Palestine is a country?
- edanm 10y ago
  My point wasn't to make a direct comparison to Mexicans in the US - my point was that it's citizenship that makes the difference, not physical location. As long as they're not citizens, it makes sense that they don't vote. There's a totally valid discussion around whether they should be citizens, but that's a separate discussion. "You can say Palestine is another country - but then why are settlements and the IDF there?" Well, I think the official position of Israel is that it isn't a separate country, it's a territory that's occupied by Israel, but that Israel chooses not to officially annex. I don't love this arrangement, and I certainly don't like that there continue to be settlements there, but like most people, I don't have an easy solution to this situation. Annexing the lands and turning the Palestinians into citizens means effectively destroying the entire point of Israel's existence (a country for the Jewish religion/nationality). I think the majority of people today consider a two-state solution the only true option - make it actually another country, at which point, as you point out, there can't be settlements there and the IDF would have to completely stay out. But while this is probably a desired situation, it's not the situation now.
WayneBro 10y ago
I think American Indians instead of Mexicans would have worked better in your example since the Jews basically kick the Palestinians out of the area in order to take it over.

beagle3 10y ago

Your statement makes no sense. How does control over a piece of land make a difference to democratic status? You could just as well ask why illegal/undocumented mexicans do not have representation in congress. Palestinians have a Palestinian Authority citizenship and passport, and are not Israeli citizens (therefore cannot vote in the Israeli election, and thus have no direct representatives in the Knesset, although there are some Arab-Israeli members of the Knesset who consider themselves Palestinian and do, in some ways, represent them). It so happens that, as a result of complicated and pretty fucked up history, (a) Israel exercises military control of the West Bank, and (b) A small but extremely loud minority of Israelis have built their homes in the West Bank, and the Israeli army looks after their interests. The West Bank is NOT officially a part of Israel, has not been annexed, and plans to do so are not even on any table. Israel used to have exactly the same kind of arrangement (military control, some settlers) in Gaza between 1967 and 2005, at which point, Israeli unilaterally pulled out of Gaza (forcibly moving all Israelis living in Gaza out, and leaving it to Palestinian and PA rule). In a very bloody internal war that also involved fraudulent elections, Hamas took control of Gaza from the PA, and essentially declared war on Israel, causing Israel to enforce a blockade of Gaza. 10 years and thousands of rockets and bombs deployed on both sides later, this is still where it is at. Partially as a result of the experience of pulling out of Gaza, Israel is reluctant to pull out of the West Bank, which -- with some land trade -- was actually the plan. I am not taking sides here, but, by western standards, which include (for example) the right of women to drive and not wear head covering, gay people to be gay, the right to drink alcohol, practice any religion you wish, and stuff like that - Israel indeed is the only democracy in the middle east. Hamas executes gay people. Saudi Arabia just jails them IIRC, and alcohol is verbotten even if you are Christian.

pastProlog 10y ago
> You could just as well ask why illegal/undocumented mexicans do not have representation in congress. You're comparing a Mexican who made the decision to cross a border yesterday, or last year, or a decade ago, with say a Palestinian man born in Nablus 75 years ago, whose family has been in Nablus for centuries? With a West Bank settlement which seized land next door, the Jew from Brooklyn who just moved in yesterday, and who is in a West Bank settlement, the Jew can have a Knesset vote but the Palestinian can't because he's not a Jew. Comparing the Mexican to the Palestinian is a laugh. Then you say Palestinians are separate so should not be in the Knesset. The West Bank settlements and IDF in the West Bank belie this. Israel voting in the UN to deny Palestinian statehood belies this. Plenty of statements from Netanyahu and the ruling Likud are that the West Bank was annexed. Also Israel used to "secretly" fund Hamas and Hezbollah as a bulwark against the PLO, PFLP, George Habash etc. That has come out over the years, it mainly came out in the US in the 1980s when Israel and the US were caught arming Hezbollah and Iran (Iran-Contra), but other dribs and drabs came out over the years. The PFLP and elements of Fatah and the PLO were always the main enemy, and Israel has always opposed the secular left vehemently and sometimes supported Hamas. So Israelis condemning Hamas carries little weight. Also, Israel has a large and rapidly growing population of Jewish religious fundamentalists who control ALL marriages in Israel with a Jewish fundamentalist take, and in their communities those women have to cover their heads and shave off their hair, being gay is verboten etc. Israel has a large population of Jews like this.

golergka 10y ago

Your statement about jews is false. There are plenty of arab israelis that have voting rights, who choose to live in A, B and C territories of Judea and Samaria — while due to apartheid PA regime, israeli jews are banned from their territories based on ethnicity.